Emission controls for hot rods (please read )

Just as a point of interest you could always go Propane like I have on my rod and have seen on others over there, The only problem I might see is the distance between filling stations for you guys.
 
I have a 1975 305 ci out of a Montecarlo in my 28 Model A and am running a PVC only, hope mine passes or I will go backwards and put a flattie in it.
 
MOE problem update;

It's been a while since I've first posted this "problem", so here's the update.
I wrote a letter to John O'Toole which is our MP here in the Durham area, and he was kind enough to reply to my concern by sending me a letter.
He has sent a letter to the Environment Minister, and they claim that the Ministry is looking into the matter.This was back in early October.

This morning after a few weeks trying to synchronize a meeting place, I finally met 2 of the MOE officers that patrol the roads and fine offenders.
They were actually a couple of cool guys, and understood my (our) concerns.
They agree that there is a large "grey" area in the legislation, and that some officers are interpreting the laws as they see it. There's actually only about a dozen MOE officers out there, and only a few of them are causing "issues".

We never came to a conclusion, but basically, if you're running any vehicle that had emission controls on it, they have to be there. That's straight forward, and a no-brainer.
My concern was with replacement engines, specifically crate engines or aftermarket engines.
The way the law is written, and the way the enforcement officers interpret it is that these engines must meet the emission standards of the year the engine was manufactured.
I told them that GM, Ford and Chrysler offered replacement engines for the older vehicles (crate engines) and that these engines were designed with zero emissions controls, and were actually meant to run with a carburetor.
Their answer to that was that these engines are designed for "off-road" use only.
They did mention that there will be meetings that will take place in the upcoming months to address this issue. They wrote down my concerns, and assured me that I will be the first to find out, and when I do I will let you know.
FYI Frank , your engine is not emission legal because as of now the Ministry sees it as an "Off-Road Use Only" engine. Hopefully this changes before next summer.
Dan
 
2 years ago im driveing the 57 down barton in east the end of hamilton. mindin my owen bussness all of a sudden i hear woooop .I start lookin round the cab thinkin its the truck . Block later i hear it again this time i look in the rear view .shure enuf i find my problem and pull over . runs my licence and insurance walks back up to the truck and tells me thers mobil saftey lane over on strathern and im going to follow him. figured since he had all my stuff and he never ask how i felt about it and bein arrested sobber is never any fun i thought this whus a great idea. pulls in to the lanes cop walks over to a trailer hands off my paperwork and leaves. 5min or so guy walks up dosent say a word walks around truck couple times still silent . Sticks his head in window and in a real lo voice says I have no fn idea why he pulled you in hear. turns out he just rebuilt a 68 talked cars for 5 or 10 min and got cut loose. this guy knew his stuff and what a stock 235 looks like.even pointed out the draft tube to a booger head that couldint mind his own bussness looking for a pcv . infact im sure if you glued a pvc pipe to the rocker cover with a hose stuck to it booger wouldnt of cought on . so if Danno is right on the number of inspectors its a crap shoot if ya get yanked .if the original guy would of got me with something id take my lumps as my own fault.but the boogers of this world are just nasty. I can hear the judge now .why would he lie.answering because he is retarded hasent worked for me yet.but everyone knows the truth has no place in a courtroom.
 
28-3wd coupe said:
I have a 1975 305 ci out of a Montecarlo in my 28 Model A and am running a PVC only, hope mine passes or I will go backwards and put a flattie in it.
Click to expand...

1975 had PCV, Evap, Cats, Air pump,Vent tube, etc....

If you get pulled over, you won't be able to put a flattie in it after you pay all the fines !!
 
Danno, I understand what you're saying about vehicles that were originally equipped with certain emission control devices must keep those devices on the vehicle, and also that if you install a newer engine in an older car, that you must keep the emission controls for the newer engine. I used to be a Drive Clean inspector years ago. I have several newer cars, that I've modified, and even though sometimes its been a headache, I've kept all of the required emission controls on the cars, because I don't want to be fined for taking stuff off that is supposed to be there.
Where I'm a bit confused, is that I know that the law USED to be worded in such a way that if you built a vehicle, or swapped an engine, and it was done prior to the year 2000, or the engine was manufactured prior to the year 2000, that the vehicle only had to comply with 1980 emission standards. Do you know if those rules have been changed recently? Part of the point that I'd like to make here is that there are probably a number of "crate" engines that were manufactured a number of years ago, that have been sitting in a warehouse somewhere, and have not been sold up until recently. I know that Frank probably got one of the very last GM 3.4 V6 "crate" engines
that was left anywhere. Were these engines built using old casting molds? What identifying marks are on them? How are the MOE people supposed to know exactly when these engines were manufactured? Does the MOE have any data that shows when crate engines were manufactured? I know that in the case of older GM engines, you can identify them using both casting and stamping numbers, and in most cases, you can tell what kind of vehicle that the engine was originally installed in, and what type(s) of emission controls were originally installed in the original vehicle (I've seen a listing like that for Chevrolet engines), but how is the MOE supposed to know information like that for crate engines? That's where I have a problem with the whole "date of manufacture" for crate engines issue.
Sorry for the long post, but any insights on this would be appreciated, thanks.
 
clean8485 said:
Danno, I understand what you're saying about vehicles that were originally equipped with certain emission control devices must keep those devices on the vehicle, and also that if you install a newer engine in an older car, that you must keep the emission controls for the newer engine. I used to be a Drive Clean inspector years ago. I have several newer cars, that I've modified, and even though sometimes its been a headache, I've kept all of the required emission controls on the cars, because I don't want to be fined for taking stuff off that is supposed to be there.
Where I'm a bit confused, is that I know that the law USED to be worded in such a way that if you built a vehicle, or swapped an engine, and it was done prior to the year 2000, or the engine was manufactured prior to the year 2000, that the vehicle only had to comply with 1980 emission standards. Do you know if those rules have been changed recently? Part of the point that I'd like to make here is that there are probably a number of "crate" engines that were manufactured a number of years ago, that have been sitting in a warehouse somewhere, and have not been sold up until recently. I know that Frank probably got one of the very last GM 3.4 V6 "crate" engines
that was left anywhere. Were these engines built using old casting molds? What identifying marks are on them? How are the MOE people supposed to know exactly when these engines were manufactured? Does the MOE have any data that shows when crate engines were manufactured? I know that in the case of older GM engines, you can identify them using both casting and stamping numbers, and in most cases, you can tell what kind of vehicle that the engine was originally installed in, and what type(s) of emission controls were originally installed in the original vehicle (I've seen a listing like that for Chevrolet engines), but how is the MOE supposed to know information like that for crate engines? That's where I have a problem with the whole "date of manufacture" for crate engines issue.
Sorry for the long post, but any insights on this would be appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...

Good questions;
A vehicle that received a newer or a crate engine before Jan 1 1999, is exactly like you said, "it must meet 1980 specs".

The MOE has access (in their vehicle) to GM engine casting numbers, so therefore they can tell what generation of engine you have, and what years they were used. A particular casting number may have been used in different vehicles, so they can't tell exactly what car or truck it came out of.

As it stands now, and the way the MOE sees it, if you're running a "crate" engine, then you're running an engine that is for off-road only and is not to be used on public roads !!

I showed them the GM performance book, and pointed out the crate engines that are available for direct replacement in different vehicles. The book even has a listing of the cars and trucks that these engines are designed for. I must however say that there is a disclaimer on the bottom of the page that says GM will not be liable for emission infractions, and that the purchaser must make sure that the engine meets local emission laws.

The law makes no sense at all !! This law, if it's not fought by all of us, will drastically change our hobby !!
I'm just a little guy trying to make others aware of this problem because there is strength in numbers.
If the local MP gets 1000 pissed off car guys complaining, you can bet your ass that something will be done.
I think the real members of this forum should be spending their time sending an e-mail to their MPs instead of worrying about stupid stuff like too many "guests" surfing this forum, or new members not "introducing" themselves correctly.;)
I don't know Frank very well, and actually have only met him a handfull of times, but he's the first one I thought of when this issue was brought to light, because I'm hoping with his position in the Hot Rod community, he will , or he will have contacts that can bring changes.
I've spent 4 months on this, and can't really do much more.

If nothing is done, the problem will only get worse !!
Dan

BTW;Heres the link again to the law. Section 4.2 is the one in question, read it carefully !

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_980361_e.htm
 
1971 460 Lincoln engine.. yep it had emissions. but the heck if i know what they were...

I'm going to wait a bit before looking for a flattie, see how this pans out, if indeed this is true, I think I'd really have to reconsider consider if my cars worth any more work..
 
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If I understand this correctly, the MOE are using the casting number from a GM block to determine the vintage of the engine and what emission equipment it should have. What happens if you grind the casting numbers off?
 
oldkoot said:
If I understand this correctly, the MOE are using the casting number from a GM block to determine the vintage of the engine and what emission equipment it should have. What happens if you grind the casting numbers off?
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There's tons of "what ifs" !! Chances are that if you grind the casting numbers off of a 1980 block, one wouldn't be able to tell it apart from a 60's block.
The engines in question are newer engines like the Gen7 engines from GM. All the grinding in the world won't disguise what they are.
 
I stopped building my 53 Plymouth with a 77 Chev Small block because I have had enough of this bull. I bought a stone stock 1967 Plymouth Valiant going to build different kind of low rider. IM TIRED OF THE GOVERNMENT CRAP!!!!!!!!
 
So it's the year the bare block was cast? You can take a 283 block and build your own engine with new parts (other than the block) and it is okay? When the manufacturer of the engine is self and not GM. A block is not an engine so who determines what year it was built? Old block ok? New block not ok?
 
So it's the year the bare block was cast?
Yes
You can take a 283 block and build your own engine with new parts (other than the block) and it is okay?
Yes
When the manufacturer of the engine is self and not GM. A block is not an engine so who determines what year it was built?
They look at the year the block was cast, and that determines the year of the engine

Old block ok?
Yes
New block not ok?
yes This is what needs to be addressed !!
 
Danno, since you mention that John O'Toole is your MP, I'm assuming that you're somewhere in Durham Region, am I correct? I wouldn't mind getting together with you sometime to chat about this subject. I'm just north of Port Perry. Like I said in my post, I've got vehicles that were originally equipped with emission controls, and I've kept them on and functioning. I understand that most people here are unhappy with the way the law is worded and administered now, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to quit building or driving a car that I like, just to avoid the possibility of being fined over an emission infraction. My own preference is to be able to drive the car that I like, and not have to worry about being fined if I get pulled over. Just my humble opinion.
 
John in Oz said:
Just as a point of interest you could always go Propane like I have on my rod and have seen on others over there, The only problem I might see is the distance between filling stations for you guys.
Click to expand...

Propane conversion were a big thing here John 20 - 30 yrs. ago, but it became harder to find stations that carried it and it eventually went by the wayside.
I don't know of any stations in the Maritimes that carry propane.
 
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chances are if you start grinding stuff off your block they will inpound your car and charge you with posession of stolen property. you might get the car back in a year or two minus the motor and hack job they did removeing it plus 15 to 20 grand lawyer cost or roll the dice pay a 500 to 1000 doller fine get a criminal record and hope they dont come at you again because 2nd offence is staight to jail .more then likely grabing your house and any thing eles they can sell under the proceeds of crime laws.By the way they dont need any real proof at the end of the day it dosent cost them a cent infact ther getting paid. and no one cares that they just wasted a million in tax dollars because ther all belled up to the same trough. hay if you dont believe me try it and let us know how ya made out.
 
chances are if you start grinding stuff off your block they will inpound your car and charge you with posession of stolen property. you might get the car back in a year or two minus the motor and hack job they did removeing it plus 15 to 20 grand lawyer cost or roll the dice pay a 500 to 1000 doller fine get a criminal record and hope they dont come at you again because 2nd offence is staight to jail .more then likely grabing your house and any thing eles they can sell under the proceeds of crime laws.By the way they dont need any real proof at the end of the day it dosent cost them a cent infact ther getting paid. and no one cares that they just wasted a million in tax dollars because ther all belled up to the same trough. hay if you dont believe me try it and let us know how ya made out.
Click to expand...

Slim,
Next time you get a SBC rebuilt and they deck the block guess "your" in trouble. A production casting number has nothing to do with a legal title.
 
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