Emission controls for hot rods (please read )

D

Danno

Active Member
In the past couple of years the Ministry of the Environment here in Southern Ontario ,have been agressively pulling over our older vehicles to see if the emission controls are there. While we all know that if your car came with catalytic converters, air pumps, charcoal canisters, etc... those items must be there or you will face hefty fines.
What a lot of people don't realize, is that they are now targeting the hot rod stuff (pre 1960)!!
They claim that the year of the engine determines the emission controls you need to have installed. If you have a 1969 or older engine, you're probably OK as long as you have the proper emission controls intact ( pcv, oil breather tube, etc )
If you're running a newer engine that was taken out of a car or truck (LS1 is an example), then all the emission controls from the donor vehicle must be also used.
I just got off the phone with the enforcement division of the MOE, and they told me that "crate" engines need to have emission controls from the year the engine was built. I went on to explain that "crate" engines are designed to be installed in "non-emission" controlled vehicles, and that these engines are designed to be carbureted and don't even come with EGR provisions on the intake. They wouldn't listen !!
Has anyone with a crate engine ever been pulled over ? I would like to hear your side of the story !!
Dan
 
Hello and welcome to this site Danno! Wow! what a load of crap. Here in BC (lower mainland) we have AIR CARE. They go by the year of the vehicle as far as specs go. Who is determining what year your engine is? I know that not too many cops around here know one end of a car from another nevermind what year the engine is. Do you have to get them tested before insurance?
 
Last year I got the exact opposite reply, the emissions standard applies to the year of vehicle, not the engine, so go figure. I'd like to know HOW they will determine on a road side inspection the year of the engine?
 
MY 'side of the story'??

How about YOU starting out with a proper introduction and possibly a little info as to how/where you found out about our group?

A little decorum and politeness goes a long way in our community....

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Doug, Dan's profile says Ontario. That's something...

He also exchanged numerous emails with me about legislation, laws etc. He said that he would keep us informed. Appears he has.
 
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That is certainly opening a huge can of worms. What about "reproduction" parts like engine block, heads, cranks, etc.? Reproduction parts for vintage cars are made as exact copies of vintage parts. Are they classed as new or old. Another thing, you can easily build a small block chevy without using a single original equipment part. What is the emmision standard of a Miloden engine if they go by engine block....:confused:

Russ
 
When has any Government department ever worried about complications or the logistics of passing or upholding any legislation?
As usual it will probably pass and then we will all spend time and money proving how ridiculously difficult it is to enforce.
 
Old Fart said:
MY 'side of the story'??

How about YOU starting out with a proper introduction and possibly a little info as to how/where you found out about our group?

A little decorum and politeness goes a long way in our community....

About Location in Profile
Effective immediately, all new registrations will require that the registrant fill out a Location profile field. Similarly, existing registered users will be required to do the same when editing their profiles. This is primarily being done to assist with identification of spam-type registrations.


About Location in Profile
Effective immediately, all new registrations will require that the registrant fill out a Location profile field. Similarly, existing registered users will be required to do the same when editing their profiles. This is primarily being done to assist with identification of spam-type registrations.



About Location in Profile
Effective immediately, all new registrations will require that the registrant fill out a Location profile field. Similarly, existing registered users will be required to do the same when editing their profiles. This is primarily being done to assist with identification of spam-type registrations.
Click to expand...

I think he may have got the point the first time no?.
 
I have heard of a few instances where the Environmental MTO folks are pulling hotrods over, not even the Police doing it.

What they are doing is looking at the casting date on the block, and then the stamped code on the engine to determine the year of the engine. I suggest that people (in Ontario) take a good look at what they have and run the model/year of what engine they have.

In my case its from a 1974 Police full size sedan. PCV is all that was installed, its all I am running.

They have also been pulling over newer vehicles as it seems that since they changed the sniffer test to 7 years, folks are stripping the exhausts off in favor of a dual setup.
 
I wonder what they do for the folks that grind the blocks smooth before painting.

hmmmmm
 
Sounds like it belongs in my file titled, "Tax dollars at work".

Government knows nothing about old cars, but they love to stick their nose "up your tailpipe". Here in SK, we've had similar issues. The largest problem in my opinion, is the total lack of knowledge possessed by the people who enforce the rules. They don't know how to start a car with a carburetor, much less understand them.

Through multiple complaints, petitions and lobbyists, the powers that be (here in SK) seem willing to write or rewrite the laws and practices in language that makes sense. That remains to be seen, but at least they're willing to listen!



Organize and revolt. Get some real car experts together. Circulate petitions. Write your MLA and the minister in charge. Find people who've done this sort of thing before in Ontario. The media likes stories about oppression and ridiculous policy. Make enough noise and you'll be heard.

Using their logic, You should put a 60's engine in a new car. :confused:
 
Fellas,
here in beautiful Ontariario, we have our own Special Environment Police. The cops really couldn't be bothered with emissions, unless they are flagrant. The evnviros care not what you are driving, just that it's clean. Now you can live in the 401 corridor and have to face the Enviro Nazis, or you can move 25 miles either north or south...well for some of you guys, east or west of the 401 and you're exempt!! How's that for crap.
I had a 78 Elcamino with the factory engine etc in it. They decided that after their coffeee break at Timmie's they would inspect my 'Camino. I got charged $280 for non compliance. I went to court to fight it. There wasn't anything on the car to tell me what was required for emission equipment. The justice said," They told you what was missing will you fix it ?" I said I would. She said Guilty!!! fine will be $100. The kid that inspected the car looked at the choke stove and said, and I quote," YOU HAVE AN OPEN VACUUM LEAK RIGHT THERE ON THE MANIFOLD",. It was right under the electric choke!!!

We're not talking racers, hotrodders, muscle car lovers here....just people who work for the government
 
I guess I touched of a nerve in "Old Fart" !! :confused:
My name is Dan, I live on Ontario and obviously have a street rod. If you need any additional info like my kid's names and shoe size, please PM me !!

To all others;
I brought this up with Frank a few months ago, and told him I would let him know my progress on this issue. I just want to let others know also, because I feel this is a violation of our hobby as well as our rights.

The paragraph in the link below ( section 4.2 ) is what the MOE (Ministry on the Environment) is using against us.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_980361_e.htm

The Officer I spoke to today basically said that right or wrong, that's how their office "interprets" this law.(BTW, the office was in Scarborough )
I brought up some of the same scenarios that were mentioned here like numbers missing and such, and he just said that if the NEW engines had no emission controls, then they should not be allowed on the roads.

I contacted my MP (John OToole) about this 1 1/2 months ago,and got a call back the same day from one of his assistants. She told me the bulk of the complaints were coming from the Lindsay and Peterborough area. I'm now hearing that Oshawa is a hot bed for the MOE also. She also told me she would try and get me an answer, but since it was just before the elections, I'm sure it got pushed to the back burner. Maybe it's time for another call !!

I've been in this hobby for over 30 years but don't usually frequent the chat rooms, so I appologize for barging in here and dumping this info on you. Unfortunatelly this issue is too large for just me to take on, and my goal is to try and tell as many people as I can because there is power in numbers.
I will be attending the SEMA show next week in Vegas, and will try and find any info that pertains to Canada. I think SEMA has a Canadian branch.
 
Okay so I read through the Hotrod section:

Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods

4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

********************

***MY OPINION FOLLOWS***
What that means to me is if the engine is replaced, it must meet the equipment that came with the original engine/car.

If a new engine is installed it must have the equipment that is included by the manufacturer of the engine. So if the manufacturer does not offer the equipment its not needed???

I guess I should just buy an aftermarket block and tell them that they "Do not offer emissions equipment"



Man what a mess.
 
With all the world wide protests that people are doing, including Canada and the US. The politicians must be getting a little nervous in their padded chairs. Now could be just the right time to convince them to back off more oppressive vehicle laws concerning our hot rods as that is only a tiny issue with them.

Russ
 
Welcome to the site Danno and thanks for the information!

Ever since I was told of people being pulled over for smog equipment I've been wondering where mine fits in. I assumed that because it gets better gas mileage and polutes less that the old Stove Bolt I6's that I was ok. Is there a contact number to ash questions? I'd like to know if just adding Cat's to my exhaust will make me compliant!
 
So, rebuilding an old block is okay. How do they know it's rebuilt? Grind the numbers off. Next thing they will be watching us on saturdays to see how much pollution our lawn mowers are putting out.
When you consider how many miles we are putting on our old cars compared to general commuters I don't know why they think they are saving the planet this way.
Our cars are a part of history restored or preserved at great cost to us. They matter and should be saved and respected. Our cars are generally driven with more care and attention as we respect their age and importance. Not to mention the hours and dollars WE spent to save them for future generations to admire and LEARN from. Does everything have to be disposable? Every car have to look like a Toyota? How boring.
Here (BC) we have air care. You pass or you don't. who cares when the engine was built.
 
Atomsplitter said:
Welcome to the site Danno and thanks for the information!

Ever since I was told of people being pulled over for smog equipment I've been wondering where mine fits in. I assumed that because it gets better gas mileage and polutes less that the old Stove Bolt I6's that I was ok. Is there a contact number to ash questions? I'd like to know if just adding Cat's to my exhaust will make me compliant!
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Here's how stupid this gets !!
In Port Perry, an owner of a 1953 GM pickup got pulled over by the Feds. The OPP,MTO and MOE wereall there doing a blitz that day. From what I've been told, this guy had a new 6 liter gm engine in his truck, but did not have the cats installed. They nailed him $500 X 2 for not having cats (dual exhaust ) and they also nailed him another $500 for not having the evaporative charcoal canister for a total of a $1500 fine.
This is the story that started me on getting to the bottom of this issue because I got so pissed off after hearing it.
Here's a guy replacing his old inefficient, polluting engine with a late model computer controlled clean burning one, and he gets fined . THAT'S JUST WRONG !! I was not there, so I don't know how polite this guy was to the officers, but I don't think a fine that high is justified.

If a new engine is installed it must have the equipment that is included by the manufacturer of the engine. So if the manufacturer does not offer the equipment its not needed???

I guess I should just buy an aftermarket block and tell them that they "Do not offer emissions equipment"
Click to expand...

This is what I mentioned to the MOE guy today, and that's when he said that an engine like that should not be on our roads.

What needs to happen, is that "our" community needs to band together and actually take this matter to court with a proper lawyer that understands the laws as they are written. The justice system is setup so that individuals cannot afford fight for their rights, so they just end up paying the fines even though they are not guilty of the offence.
Most of this crap is happening in, and around Oshawa. Motor city Car club is also located in Oshawa, and has many members. It takes an organization like this to put a stop to this insanity.
 
When I lived in California they tried this. The California hot rodders with the help of SEMA petitioned it based on the fact that these are "recreational" cars, not driven every day. The state of california gave up and moved on to other more important things leaving the hot rod community alone.
 
my builder helper buddy was calif. and moved to arz. he smiled an said this zz4 is 1963 number vintage now to heck with nerds
 
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