Ontario MOE antics

I agree with everyone here but who is ctually goin to grab the bull by the horns ?? Is there any of the organizations steppin up ?? There is cruz tomorrow and S&S sunday in this riding. Curious what might transpire over the weekend if those "GSD'S" show up ??? Has me thinkin on what to post or what not to post now as you never who is reading this anymore . Obviously the lions and rotary people need to be informed and anyone who benefits from US -the enthusiasts the hobbyists and the spectators coming to these events --what about all the A&W's across the nation????? ARRRGGGGGGGG what piss off ---Goign to call the office and ask about the identical letters will keep you posted after the call

Shane
 
I was thinking on the lines of having a web site strictly for this subject..I am not that bright as of how to make that happen..the site should not be for any other issue we want to should encourage the public to have input and support ..we could also make the site available to our politicans..We could link it from this and other sites..It should only be to address this subject ..This needs to be done so we can get everyone interested and adding input on this issue in one place ..It may take a couple months but we need to do it..

Having this issue/subject on ten websites is not helpful to be able to plan or organize and stop so much bitching and non productive repeating of the same stuff..We need to get an intelligent response/argument position and we need everybodys input to reach a consensus..Then we need to take it to the public by printing flyers, maybe one page letters to pass out to spectators and to all car particpants at shows, what other ideas do you have..we need to have information handouts at events or anyplace that we enjoy our hobby..

We should ask for time to make a presentation at every little town, or city at their council meetings, at every service club, lions, rotarary, optimists, the food banks, They have incredible influence on Local politicians.. There are many of us.. I am a crummy PC tech but, I can speak at council meetings I am a good speaker..

We could possibly hold a couple of shows, for the purpose of planing and organizing events, to raise some funds to go into the expense of taking this fight to Mr McGuinty and maybe we could with a little planing we could organize some sort of major protest with 1000 street rodders, We need to be a thorn in his ass, we need to hold a event or events to demonstrate to attract attention to our cause ..I believe we contribute many, many , many dollars and food for the food bank as well as a lot of dollars go to fund hospital equipment, humane societys, school trips, Arthritis fund raisers,..We need to make our cause known

These are all things the government falls short on and I truly believe we can change this. I believe we can make a difference..but it takes balls to quit yappin and start to make a difference..

I personally do not believe in making us look like jerks we need to be responsible, organized and professional to turn this around and I beleive if we can get public attention and support we can do this..

These are just some thoughts and stuff that came through the screen I view..we need an organizer, a leader who has organational skills, we need people who can design a logo for our cause, people who can help with drafting a mantra or a mission..people willing to do the legwork and we need facts on paper to make the media and the public to make them aware of just what our dear beloved mr McGuintys government and the MOE are doing to affect our hobby and to our local communitys we need the Government politicians to rewrite this bad regulation to be fair and reasonable to the community charitys and to see the damage they are doing to local charitys..and we need to be vocal by the 10s of thousands voices ......
 
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What about taking it to them? Pick a day and everyone in the province with a collector car descend on the Ontario legislature. Make it the largest car gathering Ontario has ever seen. Park legally and cruise slowly. Think of it, thousands of cars lining the streets and clogging the roads so that the fat cats in their limousines can't get anywhere. You're in their face and thousands of cars and people will attract a LOT of media attention.
 
Funny how bc is droping the drive clean program for pass vehicals when ontario just orders all inspection stations to buy all new equipment and tells them they have to buy it from one source. Parsons Canada inc will hold excluesive rights to sell and service all drive clean equipment. Now our minister of transport Bob chiarelli from a riding in ottawa( where parsons has an office but if you google it you will find little or no information) is know as a champion to the cause of public transport.The new light rail transit project in ottawa is down to a short list of three supplyers and guess whos on the list? Can you smell it . All so interesting fact is the ministre is droping the requirement for drive clean tests on cars with historic plates but is targeting the events that they are likely going to attend with overtime mobile units.Wonder who suppled them expensive mobile units Hmmm,
 
I only recently learned of this issue with the Smog Patrol targeting car shows and cruise-ins. I've downloaded and read a lot of official material about it, and must say that I'm very concerned about it and not sure what we hobbyists can do to change it.

I'm skeptical that a letter-writing campaign will work. Oh sure, we can write to our MPPs, to the Ontario Environment Minister and to the Premier, and sign all the petitions we want. But all the government is going to do is prepare a standard response letter (a form letter) which they can send in reply to each and every one of our complaints. That's it. It won't change the Environmental Protection Act or Regulations, which is what we need to amend.

We need a strong lobby. A strong voice with some political heft. I'm not sure who could do this, but I'd be 100% supportive of them.

I don't mean to sound negative/pessimistic. I'm just feeling a bit powerless.
 
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Sundude definatley have some valid points there !! here is what i go this afternoon so far when I asked where thier office stood regarding the blitz's and fines and lost revenue fror charities-----------response

Hi Shane,

At this point in time, there are a lot of rumors and speculation.



I think if and when this were to happen, it would have to be re-examined to see what could be done.



Hopefully this is not the case..



Enjoy your weekend.


dont know what to say boys n girls but in the meantime I did acquire the

Minstry of Enviroment
Supervisor
Sector Compliance Branch

Tele # and Email to answer your emission questions but doesnt stop the blitzs and fines -----email me for the contact if you like
shane2290 at hotmail com

have great weekend and watchout for the boys --if anyone has concrete info on blitzs n tickets that can share woudl love to send to my office to curb the rumour speculation comment.

cheers shane
 
That information is a matter of public record and be accessed by anyone on the Info-GO website.

Andy Dominski, Director
Sector Compliance Branch
Operations Division
Ontario Ministry of the Environment
305 Milner Avenue, Suite 1000
Scarborough Ontario M1B 3V4
Direct 416-314-4241
General 416-314-4278
Fax 416-314-4464
Email andy.dominski@ontario.ca​

The Sector Compliance Branch sounds like the group which enforces the regulations and implements the Smog Patrol blitzes. The question is, who within the MOE develops the vehicle emissions regulations and policies? And what would it take to amend them to exempt hobby cars from roadside testing?

There are more than 7.5 million vehicles registered in Ontario. What percentage of those are hobby cars, and what percentage of the annual mileage driven do they represent? I suspect the answer would be infinitesimally small. In which case, taxpayers and politicians should be asking: How did hobby cars rise to the top of the "to do" list for the Smog Patrol, and why are we spending (wasting) public resources on a problem with no real impact?!
 
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The question is, who within the MOE develops the vehicle emissions regulations and policies? And what would it take to amend them to exempt hobby cars from roadside testing?

How did hobby cars rise to the top of the "to do" list for the Smog Patrol, and why are we spending (wasting) public resources on a problem with no real impact?!
The answer to this is simple
ever watch the show big bang theory ??. Take any of the main characters , eggsept the blonde with the nice cans , give them some stoopid little button pushing job , behind doors in politics , give them ten minutes on a government computor , and voila . They just came up with a new way to save the world , the economy , 500 jobs in moe , the environment , their own job , their bosses job .
Some body who is an idea person came up with a new way to interpret , or manipulate an all ready written by law , now they look like a hero to the rest of their fed buddies . Thats it .
Ever watch the cbc movie about the avro arrow , the guy an the girl who were assistants to some fed who pushed hard enuff an got the whole thing squashed .
OR how about the guy who changed the zoning on the war time aviation museum property allowing the property owner to evict the heritage museum an build soccer fields . All the same people , same job , some lil button pusher , hidden an protected behing closed fed doors ..77.
 
About it. By cracking down on a tiny percentage of the driving public, they can look like they are strongly enforcing the law at the same time diverting attention away from the major corportate poluters.
Russ
 
most people in Ontario (my family) dont give a crap about old cars and want us band from the road. Most car people I know in Ontario with old cars dont care and wright this off as alarmist. Im tired of even caring any more if they ban the old car hobby so be it. As Ontario car guys we like to push each other into groups and discredit each group. Im afraid we will be made illegal as we fight each other.Our government is looking to make as much $$ as it can and also look as if it was doing it for the politically correct environmentally friendly electorate.
 
"The question is, who within the MOE develops the vehicle emissions regulations and policies? And what would it take to amend them to exempt hobby cars from roadside testing?

There are more than 7.5 million vehicles registered in Ontario. What percentage of those are hobby cars, and what percentage of the annual mileage driven do they represent? I suspect the answer would be infinitesimally small. In which case, taxpayers and politicians should be asking: How did hobby cars rise to the top of the "to do" list for the Smog Patrol, and why are we spending (wasting) public resources on a problem with no real impact?!"

I think it has a lot to do with perception. I mean, perception is reality to them, and sadly, to a lot of the general public too. Most of our cars are old and are viewed as unsafe, gas guzzlers and polluters and they (government, cops and news media) have always viewed hot rodders as outlaws. I can't help but think that this mentality is also intertwined with the crackdown on street racing. A "kill two birds with one stone" kind of mentality. I also think that the percentage of classic cars and hot rods is so small that, even if the government took every one of them off the road, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to the air quality in Toronto.
The fact that you guys are getting together and doing something is good. Writting letters, especially hand written ones, is a good move. If the politicians get enough letters they will realize that it's not just one or two people opposed to this crap but an entire segment of the population. Anybody living in other provinces and reading this better start preparing for a fight because it's only a matter of time until your provincial government tries this same kind of BS too. I wish you guys in Ontario the best of luck and remember, "Ilegitimis Non Carborundum."​
 
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SunDude said:
...The question is, who within the MOE develops the vehicle emissions regulations and policies? And what would it take to amend them to exempt hobby cars from roadside testing?

There are more than 7.5 million vehicles registered in Ontario. What percentage of those are hobby cars, and what percentage of the annual mileage driven do they represent? I suspect the answer would be infinitesimally small. In which case, taxpayers and politicians should be asking: How did hobby cars rise to the top of the "to do" list for the Smog Patrol, and why are we spending (wasting) public resources on a problem with no real impact?!
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Let me put it another way.

When it comes to the Ontario Drive Clean program, there are two issues and two sets of regulations: 1) emissions testing and vehicle permitting, and 2) emissions standards and roadside enforcement. Vehicle permit regulations are set under the Highway Traffic Act and emissions regulations are set under the Environmental Protection Act.

On the one hand the Government of Ontario has decided to exempt a number of vehicles from Drive Clean testing and permitting -- such as motorcycles, historic vehicles and kit cars -- presumably because their environmental impact is minimal and not worth spending resources to control.

On the other hand the Government of Ontario has started targeting hobby cars -- including hot rods, historic vehicles and kit cars -- with roadside checks for compliance with emissions regulations. MOE officers and police have the authority to pull an offending vehicle's plates if they want to.

How can there be two sets of standards to meet? If the government recognized on one hand that it's OK for some types of vehicles to be exempt from Driven Clean testing, then surely there's a way to convince them to exempt them from Drive Clean emissions standards and roadside checks, too.

Ranting might be therapeutic and just plain fun, but it's not going to solve the problem. I'm not an expert in this, but what I'm suggesting is a course of action for a major lobby effort.

We need to develop a rational and compelling argument to prove that these cars deserve to be exempt because their environmental impact is negligible and because spending government resources to pursue them (i.e., the Smog Patrol) is therefore wasteful. There may also be other valid arguments to make (preserving heritage, supporting charities, etc.). And with that, maybe we can get some political support for change.

But we need a professional and experienced group to take something like this on. Someone with clout. Is that SVAO? ACCCC? SEMA? VCCC? NAACC?
 
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Supposedly, according to the response that I received from the assistant to my MPP, the SVAO is in discussions with the Ministry of the Environment to develop a plain language guide for explaining the rules that the Ministry has in place. At least that would seem to be the standard response that most of us who have contacted our MPPs are getting.
There was a very well written letter that was published in the Old Autos newspaper about a month ago by Dean Renwick (I believe), who is in charge of the PAVE appraisers organization. The letter was sent to the Ontario minister of the environment. To paraphrase the letter, it goes to the effect that hobby vehicles comprise approximately 1/2 of 1 percent of all of the vehicles on the roads of Ontario, but hobby vehicle owners contribute approximately 900 million dollars annually to fundraising and charitable causes in the province. This kind of goes back to the point that Chuk is trying to make. As hobby vehicle owners, we usually keep our cars in good condition, and drive them on a limited basis, and usually only during the good weather. We support many different causes and organizations (Lions Club, Kiwanis Club, Cancer Society, hospitals, childrens charities, foodbanks, to name just a few), and we're happy to do it, just to be able to get out with our vehicles, and have some fun. If all of the hobbyists decided to keep our vehicles in the garage for just 1 season, how many groups and orgainzations would be the worse off for it? Quite a few, I'd imagine.
I have a later model hobby vehicle. I intend to have it until I shuffle off this world. I have made some changes to it, but all of the changes that I've made were done with an eye towards keeping all of the original emission controls intact and functional. I want to be able to drive and show my vehicle during the good weather, and I don't want to have to worry about looking over my shoulder for the MOE, or anyone else like them. I don't have a problem maintaining the integrity of the original emission controls of the vehicle. The point where I take exception, is the possibility of declaring crate engines off road only, or making hobby people prove when an engine swap was done (if you do it at home in your garage, are you going to write yourself a bill for the work, and even if you did, will the government accept that?), or other rules like that.
I can see the possibility of this type of legislation and enforcement causing an "underground" hobby movement, where people will bring out their cars late at night, or at secret locations, or people completely ignoring newer vehicles and engines, and going back to older, pre-emission era vehicles and engines, just to avoid this whole issue.
OK, its been a long rant. Maybe, there could be a separate vehicle license classification for hobby type vehicles, something with less restrictions than historic plates, but something that would allow police and government agencies to recognize a hobby use only vehicle, and allow us to be exempt from the roadside checks.
There's my long $0.02.
 
In BC we have vintage plates that are very restricted in their highway use, a collectors plate where it must still be mostly stock, and they were working on a modified collector plate for street rods.

Russ
 
While I haven't read everything related to this issue (although I will), I agree that a series of independent letters to local MPPs will do little to nothing. Individual MPPs have nothing to gain to escalate a constituents concern unless they perceive it to be in the best interest of the riding in general or relative to a significant segment where it makes sense to support it as an individual or relative to party affiliations.

Having spent over thirty years in the corporate world, I also don't feel that a series of unstructured petitions will have any effect. The intended recipients of petitions are often shielded by many levels of adminstrative bureacracy. Open, formal, structured discussion (given the opportunity) is always the best course in my opinion.

Also, bad natured rants and generalizations about politicians and the polital machinery will not help.

A mentor of mine in business once passed on a truism that I have since passed on many times. It goes something like this: "If an individual or group COMPLAINS loudly and routinely about a problem, eventually the individual or group BECOMES the problem." (e.g. the "Occupy" protests) The key word here is complain.

Clean8485 mentioned that the organization of appraisers (PAVE) had written to the minister.

And, about the Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario working toward a plainly stated representation of the requirements, I also applaud this as being a requirement to understand what we are dealing with but unless there is change in the underlying criteria, all we would have is a clearer understanding of why a lot of collector vehicles are not in compliance.

Having said all that, effecting change is one of the hardest things to achieve. The status quo is much easier. In business, most change initiatives fail. This is a common, well understood truth and a lot has been written on the subject. In order for change to be effected, those that can permit and approve the change must be engaged and convinced that change is required and will be of benefit.

Sorry for the somewhat academic approach to my post but it is what's been going through my mind relative to this subject. As an individual who could be affected by the current situation, this is certainly something I will give more thougt to.
 
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Well said Frank but still a hole lot of feathers and not much chickin. (Open, formal, structured discussion (given the opportunity) is always the best course ) Here I would agree with you and you yourself added the downfall of this approach. If anyone really cared what we thought this would of allready have taken place. Im trying to remember the last time the goverment promply admitted it was wrong and made ammends for it . (In business, most change initiatives fail) True again but the key word business ,applying making a profit or standing in the soup line is not the case here. Sadly years ago I had read a quote from the book A connecticut yankee in the kings court by mark twain and over a 100 years latter it still rings true.

{No people in the world ever did achieve their freedom by goody-goody talk and moral suasion: it being immutable law that all revolutions that will succeed must being in blood, whatever may answer afterward.}

Dorian
 
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Slim, you'll have to help me with:

still a hole lot of feathers and not much chickin
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I don't know that idiom and would have to guess what you're implying. Perhaps lacking substance? I was simply providing my thoughts in overview not providing a structured course of action.

About
If anyone really cared what we thought this would of already have taken place.
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I don't think so. Firstly, I don't know who that "anyone" might be. A combination of "us" and "them"? Even achieving a discussion setting with the appropriate people is a huge step. And, in absence of a clear understanding of what is being used as the criteria for conducting evaluations, I don't know how "we" could possibly prepare a rebuttal or put forward a thoughtful recommendation.

About my use of the word business relative to change initiatives, I could easily remove it and I believe my point would still ring true. That is, most change initiatives fail (at least initially).

Finally, about the Twain quote, it certainly is a famous one but without a smiley or other qualifier after it, I'm not sure what 21st. century course of action you're suggesting. My qualifier...;)

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
I don't know that idiom and would have to guess what you're implying. Perhaps lacking substance? I was simply providing my thoughts in overview not providing a structured course of action.
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You nailed it on the first guess and yes I realize you were just providing your thoughts and no I wasn't being sarcastic when I wrote well said. All though the post was an overview of your thoughts it was still well structured and after reading it left the impression that all is well.While most would simply enjoy the moment my natural reaction is to look to see ware the proverbial boot to the head is coming from. To be honest my first thought was He could make a fortune wrighting replies for the goverment.

I don't think so. Firstly, I don't know who that "anyone" might be. A combination of "us" and "them"? Even achieving a discussion setting with the appropriate people is a huge step. And, in absence of a clear understanding of what is being used as the criteria for conducting evaluations, I don't know how "we" could possibly prepare a rebuttal or put forward a thoughtful recommendation.
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Million dollar Question. What promted this and why.Ive spent some time searching and come up empty . Not only the changes that effect us but the much larger changes to the certified test centers and the one supplyer sourcing.Maybe some one directly involved in the industry can fill us in but the hole deal has a bad smell to it. Other then the mobile sniffer the hole deal on hot rods and kit cars looks to be the same deal I B C is putting in place for licencing hobby cars . Same go's for Canadian and U S customs. Not to say they are exact but vairy similar.Even to the point of saying they are working with the S V A of bc.Well with the lack of information and answers I figuird I may as well send an e mail to the grand pooba himself and see what happens . link provided on the MTO web site at least Ill get to see who can say nothing and realy mean it, better. My moneys on you frank :)

CHANGE.

When the pain of change is less then the pain of remaining the same. I will change...Universal law with one exception Goverment.



Finally, about the Twain quote, it certainly is a famous one but without a smiley or other qualifier after it, I'm not sure what 21st. century course of action you're suggesting. My qualifier...;)
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Somedays your the bear and somedays your the rabbit

Given the two most famous cultural revolutions since that statement. Both lead by men of peace.Both sealed the passage of no return with there life.Myself Im comfortable on ether side of the fence. I know them both well ;)

scaryist part of all this is I figured out how to use the cool little blue quote box
 
Slim I still do not know how use the blue box for quotes and are you going to London to the Hartman bash is a great time.
 
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