Ontario - MTO Licensing / VIN - Model A

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davidbistolas

Member
Hi Guys....

Lots of great info here- and i have a little more experience in these matters. I bought my current project with receipt only - a basket case '51 chevrolet (no motor, floors... lots of rot but a good builder with a solid frame). When I went to title it (before I started working on it), I called the MTO, and after many many many confusing conversations I determined that the process to title it in my name would be:

(1) Document the origin. The vin# that I used was the "body serial #" on the firewall. I actually did a very thorough province-by-province search for that number to ensure it was not actually stolen, and I actually found it in Alberta (last registered in 1988). Alberta didn't have the previous owner's name on record, and could give me no further details. However, with no theft records anywhere, I proceeded.

(2) Using the info from #1, swear out an affidavit indicating that the car was mine legitimately and not stolen.

(3) Get an Appraisal. This was for taxes. Yes- it IS necessary, contrary to another posting here. The appraisal value is what's used for tax purposes- so do this BEFORE YOU START WORKING ON THE CAR

There were no issues with this process, it worked great. I now has title in my name (status is unplated, I'm still working on it).

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However, I'm planning my next project now - '29-'31 Model A Sedan - So, assuming that:

(1) I'm buying an aftermarket frame, or fabricating it from scratch
(2) I dig out a body or piece one together from parts

Model As usually (but not always) have the serial numbers (ie: A-1234567) stamped on the frame and the motor.

What's the process? What would my registration say? 1930 Model A? Home built? Would I use the serial number of the flathead I'd eventually put in it?

It would be ideal to start with a complete car, but... in reality, putting it together from different parts is more likely going to be the case. Or at least going with a body.

So what do you guys do? How are your Model A's registered?
 
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I am just in the process myself, of securing an ownership in my name for a 1929 Model A Coach. However,...my mother in law had this bill of sale stashed away from 1941, where her and my father in law bought a 1929 Ford Model A Coach, it is complete with serial # etc. I took it to the ministry here in Tillsonburg and they run the numbers through their puter system and nothing came up on the serial numbers.

My mother in law told me years ago that the vehicle was last plated in 1945. I was informed by the ministry that I had to go through the Affidavidt thing also, ( nothing was mentioned about the appraisal having to be done ) so I am having a lawyer do it up for me. I also have a bill of sale to me from my mother in law,...which makes things somewhat easier. About all I have to have appraised is a Model A Frame,. and not much left of that..there is no longer any body,..or engine for that matter ,...I just wanted a spare Ownership,... just in case I came across something later on down the road.

The '30 Model A Coach project that I am working on came with an ownership, and I had the car plated and was driving it ( slowly ) in its original state last summer. Fun old relic, but I'm not quite ready for the 35 MPH (flat out) group yet.

Where are you located in Ontario ?? PS - ( Model A's ) The number stamped on the engine block IS the vehicle ID number.

Wayne
 
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Hi Wayne!

I'm in Brant County - near Paris. Hey, we're almost neighbours!

With the '51 Chevy (Can't wait to finish this car off!) they told me I needed the appraisal for tax purposes. Now here's the funny part... I had the car appraised before I started working on it, and the appraiser was sympathetic to my plight (no title, no floors, no motor) and he appraised it lower than I paid.

So I went to the ministry, produced the appraisal and my receipt... they took the higher value on the receipt.

So- let's say... I've got me a flatty, frame and body. Title it on the engine number?
 
Hi Dave,...yeah, were not a great distance away from one another. I frequent the Brantford Airport quite regularly during the warmer months.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I started this post at around 5 PM this afternoon,.....got right to the last line and BINGO,...out goes the friggin' hydro,..puter went down, and the post dissapeared.

Anyway,...in answer to your question concerning the " Model A " VIN,...

I dug out my Original 1930 Model A Owners Manual, and if it still had a front cover ( which it don't ), right on the first page inside, at the bottom it states -

- " The engine number is stamped on the left side of the cylinder block just above the cylinder inlet connection. The engine number is also the serial number of the car. " -

Wouldn't the Auto Theft Division of local Law Enforcement find this a nightmare this day and age LOl,...I wonder how many Model A's are now,..and was, back in the day,.. cruising around with swapped out engines LOl.

I know of 2 tobacco farms right in my area that were owned by the same family for many decades, and I used to hunt Indian Artifacts on those farms and knew the owners well. I also hunted wild game there and tromped the gully's while hunting. On the one farm there were old vehicle carcasses, and tractors, from the '30's and '40's.....and engine blocks, rearends, and tranny's scattered from one end of the gully to the other,...and I recall many of them were Model A blocks,...plus many flathead v8 blocks. I inquired through one of the sons as to why the gully was full of those old engines, etc. and he said back in the early day's,. if an engine blew,...they would just go to one of the local junk yards,..buy another for $15.00 / $30.00, to replace it and hope to get another years use out of the vehicle,...common occurance back then,...and I doubt they changed the ownership everytime they changed an engine.

Wayne
 
Did you ever get the Model A registered?
I'm asking becasue I'm on the hunt for one at the moment and need to figure out if I need the ownership/title or not.
 
davidbistolas said:
(3) Get an Appraisal. This was for taxes. Yes- it IS necessary, contrary to another posting here. The appraisal value is what's used for tax purposes- so do this BEFORE YOU START WORKING ON THE CAR
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Yes an appraisal is needed, but it is not nessisarily used for the tax purposes. You are also required to show a bill of sale from the previous owner, and the greater value of the two determines the taxes to be paid... let me tell you how I found that out...

What I did with my A was I used the body identification number that is stamped on the front body crossmember located right infront of the dirvers seat. This numner was more associated with where the body was fabricated and assembled, and a corresponing number associated with when the body was assembled.

I was able to obtain my title with an affidavit (notarized), the bill of sale from the previous owner, an appraisal, but since my car came from Alberta I was also required to have a letter from the Alberta ministry, but since my VIN - Body# wasnt on their files, I got a letter stating they purged their files in 1984 and this must have been registerd prior to that date. The very nice lady at the Service Ontario Office questioned me on this and called her supervisor, and told her that was all that was needed. Paid my taxes and walked out with a title.

There are many people who will tell you not to buy without a title, and it can be a risk and a pain in the butt, but it is do able, and once you have done it once the second time is much easier. The ministry is dumbfounded by paper work show up with as much as you can to prove your case, dpm't show up with nothing and then expect them to do much for you.
 
here in b.c. if you don,t have a reg. you have to show the vin #... bill of sale and anything else you have then send it to i.c.b.c. they will do a search of the previous owner from their files if they find the person then they send them a letter to sign saying they have no legal interest in the car, but thr kicker on this is you have to buy the car first before they will do this and they willnot do the search before so if the previous owner makes a fuss about it saying that it is still his car then what? i asked icbc this very question and they said it has never happened to them yet:eek: have been this route once alraedy and everything worked out:)
 
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