Regular Use Insurance for Hot Rods (Ontario).

Chopchop said:

Do they restrict your usage or can you drive your car whenever and wherever you want?


I'm with Zehr right now. The insurance premium is PEANUTS. I can insure three classic/hot/rod/modified (whatever you want to call them) cars for less than 1/2 what I can insure my beater for ---- but I can't drive the cars anywhere! (Other than to and from car shows and in parades.)
This "classic car" insurance is a JOKE.

Fatchuck, I agree with you.
The main point of my argument has always focused around this :

The car was legally safety-checked by a certified mechanic. In the eyes of the mechanic, based on the rules outlined by the Ontario Government, it is 100% safe.
I do not believe any insurance company should be able to deny me insurance or charge me any more than a realistic premium (based on appraised or agreed-upon value) to drive the car as it is theoretically just as safe as any other legally safety-checked vehicle. It's all B.S. and it's completely unfair.

But the neighbour's kid can hop up his rusted-out Honda and rip around with a fart can muffler and that's fine and dandy - no issues there!

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As 1bad56 mentioned I do believe there is a restriction on to and from work. I have yet to find an insurance company in Canada which will allow a classic ride to be used to get to work. But they (haggerty) are the least ugly girl on the block if you know what I mean. Definitely room for improvement in the classic car industry in Canada.

See, that's exactly the problem. The vast majority of my driving is to and from work. That's exactly the time I want to use my 'specialty' vehicles!
This last winter, despite a new, high CCA battery, my beater wouldn't start (minus 18* or something like that). So there I am a 6 o'clock in the morning wondering how the Hell I'm going to get to work 'cause my car wouldn't start.
Meanwhile, there are 3 ready-to-go, licensed, valid-sticker, insured vehicles sitting nice and cozy in the garage with battery tenders on them.
And I can't drive them to work.

Throughout the late 90s-early 2000's, I drove my '72 every winter (back and forth to work) for probably 10 years. I drove my '61 throughout the rest of the year. Now, as I don't go to car shows and I don't go to parades, I literally can't drive any of my 'classics' anywhere.

What use is my insurance?

My car buddies simply get the cheapest insurance they can and drive their cars whenever they want.
I've heard of Silver Wheels denying claims because the car wasn't being used as the policy permits. I don't want to lose my house when my insurance company refuses to cover my accident because I decided to go to the grocery store with the car and some ditz in a mini-van smacks into me.

And I'm the dummy because I want legitimate insurance!!

EDITED:

Chevster said:

A I have yet to find an insurance company in Canada which will allow a classic ride to be used to get to work. But they (haggerty) are the least ugly girl on the block if you know what I mean. Definitely room for improvement in the classic car industry in Canada.

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There are a few around this neck of the woods that do drive their classics to and from work with regular insurance. They are not modified in any way, straight up bone stockers. These are not pristine classics, they have the usual dents and stuff.
If they are in an accident and its totalled, they know they will not get much "fair market value" for them. So they tend not too worry too much about that.
But, one of them is under some pressure lately from the insurance company as the car is over 25 years old. Seems, no matter what the car is, the insurance companies just don't want to insure "older" vehicles under the normal policies for what ever reasons, perceived or not

There is definitely room for improvement but there are only so many underwriters in Canada, hence they can set the restrictions from their perspective.

Below is cut and paste from CAA's website. Give them a shout

Classic Car Insurance

CAA Insurance offers excellent coverage and rates that are extremely affordable.

Rates are based on program qualification. ONLY Caveat

Discover why your classic vehicle is in good hands:
Agreed Value Coverage - in the event there is a total loss, you will receive the full amount of your car’s insured value
Low Rates – rates are lower than a standard-use policy
No Appraisals required

For immediate coverage and peace of mind, call us at 1-877-213-1188 today!

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I had Hagerty on my 32 with no restrictions,they did want at least one other vehicle in my name (regular car) for the others in my house to drive so the 32 wasn't the only one but other than that no restrictions on use that I knew of.I had an agreed value of 100k for a little less than 2k a year, free flat bed towing and a few other things for free. I could have had a couple others at half the price but lots of restrictions. I sure can't tell you to be dishonest but I think the government is as crooked as a dogs hind leg and they expect everyone else to do the same

Randy

I would like to know the stats on thefts or accidents with modified vehicles. They must be pretty low, so what is their excuse for denying coverage? If you want to pay the premiums for a car valued at $50,000 whether it is a new car or a modified car what is their problem? The car is worth $50,000. All cars there require a safety, so that can't be a factor. I don't understand their reasoning. Modified cars are rarely stolen, compared to new cars. I think the government needs to get involved with people being denied insurance, barring the obvious too many claims or bad driving record. The driving restrictions are bogus as well. You pay insurance, you should be allowed to use your car like a driver, unless you are getting a special rate. Like I said, a $50,000 new car and a $50,000 modified car are still both worth $50,000 on a total loss.

Amen to that, Brother!

Your rate should be based on :

1. What the vehicle's worth,
2. Your driving record,
3. Area you live,
4. Your perceived usage of vehicle (ie: Daily driver or 'pleasure use'.)
5. The coverage you want (ie: Collision, Theft/Fire, $1 million liability or $2 million....etc..)

Perhaps there could be discounts for having multiple vehicles on the policy, having your house insured with that company etc... but the core rate which you pay for your car should be based simply and solely on that criteria.

I will start off by saying I TOTALLY AGREE with the following.

Chopchop said:

Amen to that, Brother!

Your rate should be based on :

1. What the vehicle's worth,
2. Your driving record,
3. Area you live,
4. Your perceived usage of vehicle (ie: Daily driver or 'pleasure use'.)
5. The coverage you want (ie: Collision, Theft/Fire, $1 million liability or $2 million....etc..)

Perhaps there could be discounts for having multiple vehicles on the policy, having your house insured with that company etc... but the core rate which you pay for your car should be based simply and solely on that criteria.

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However, I also wish to play Devil's Advocate on a couple of points.

The insurance companies are in business to make money. If they thought it was profitable to insure classics, they would definitely do it. As for forcing them to provide coverage, some companies don't insure boats, others big rigs, others farm machinery. This is no different. You can't force a steak house to serve Chinese food, or a Ford dealer to work on a Chev. Companies can choose the cliental they cater to.

The biggest problem is number one on the above list, and what causes the most problems. "What it is worth. "
How many vehicles do you see advertised where the asking price is the appraised value? Most say something like "appraised for $50,000.00, but I'll take $35,000.00." If that car was in an accident, why should the insurance company give you $50,000.00 if you are willing to sell it for less?
Pat mentioned if you want to pay premiums on a car for $50,000.00, it is worth $50,000.00. The problem is whether that is a realistic number or not. New cars are easy, there are lots of them out there and if they are all going for around $50,000.00, that is what it is worth. Modified cars are a lot trickier. It is relatively easy to find an appraiser who will give you the inflated appraisal you want, to account for every nickel & dime you put into it. People can get an appraisal on a piece of crap for $50,000.00, get into an accident, and expect to get full policy value, when the vehicle was never worth that amount. Overinflated values are a big problem.

Edited:

Scotty said:

I

The biggest problem is number one on the above list, and what causes the most problems. "What it is worth. "
How many vehicles do you see advertised where the asking price is the appraised value? Most say something like "appraised for $50,000.00, but I'll take $35,000.00." If that car was in an accident, why should the insurance company give you $50,000.00 if you are willing to sell it for less?
Pat mentioned if you want to pay premiums on a car for $50,000.00, it is worth $50,000.00. The problem is whether that is a realistic number or not. New cars are easy, there are lots of them out there and if they are all going for around $50,000.00, that is what it is worth. Modified cars are a lot trickier. It is relatively easy to find an appraiser who will give you the inflated appraisal you want, to account for every nickel & dime you put into it. People can get an appraisal on a piece of crap for $50,000.00, get into an accident, and expect to get full policy value, when the vehicle was never worth that amount. Overinflated values are a big problem.

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First of all, a brand spanking new car that one paid $50,000 depreciates the minute it's taken off the lot by 20% t0 30% in the first year. In a total accident, you can not expect to get $50K for that vehicle.

So one can not compare that to a vehicle which is appraised for $50,000. Apples and oranges.

Now the other fact is that the appraisal is not the market value of that vehicle.
The appraised value is for when a catastrophic event occurs such as a total write-off or if the vehicle is stolen and never recovered. True replacement value. That's what you're paying for.
The market value could be lower, usually, or the same as the appraisal or in some cases may be higher.

Those insurance brokers who deal in modified or classic insurance programs know which appraisers are capable and which ones are not.
That's one of the reasons for the photos in the appraisal. There was one appraiser in the Calgary area that most classic insurance companies would devalue his appraisals by a certain percentage as they knew they were inflated or not researched properly.
Hagerty is also pretty good at agreed values, they have lots of experience.

"Generally speaking, there are very few, if any insurance companies that will insure a "modified" vehicle."

I can't see this, but then maybe we're spoiled in BC!? WHOA, never thought I'd say that !! In BC if you modify your vehicle in ANY way you HAVE to apply for modified vehicle insurance if you want your insurance to be valid if you crash. Doesn't cost anymore and you can have the "modified" added if it's regular plates of collector. WAY too many guys seem to think they're covered with regular insurance and THEY'RE NOT. Bottom line, there's no problem getting insurance on any hot rod here but you have to do it right.

Topsterguy said:

"Generally speaking, there are very few, if any insurance companies that will insure a "modified" vehicle."

I can't see this, but then maybe we're spoiled in BC!? WHOA, never thought I'd say that !! In BC if you modify your vehicle in ANY way you HAVE to apply for modified vehicle insurance if you want your insurance to be valid if you crash. Doesn't cost anymore and you can have the "modified" added if it's regular plates of collector. WAY too many guys seem to think they're covered with regular insurance and THEY'RE NOT. Bottom line, there's no problem getting insurance on any hot rod here but you have to do it right.

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Provincial gov't insurance programs are the exception.

Private insurance companies, such as those in Alberta or Ontario generally will not insure a modified vehicle as per their definition of a modified vehicle.

1Bad56 - Sorry I wasn't more clear. I didn't mean brand new cars, I was trying to generalize about newer oem cars where it is easy to find similar cars to arrive at a value versus an older modified car that is much more unique.

You are correct, this would be a market value.
Your main point about replacement value is exactly why the mainstream insurance companies don't want to insure these cars. In general the whole auto insurance industry deals in market value. If you have a loss, the insurance company is buying your car from you for what it was worth prior to the accident. If they are going to insure it for replacement value, which is more than the actual car is worth; they are going to place restrictions on where and when you can drive the vehicle.

Just to stir the pot more, make sure you read your policy carefully. You may have an appraisal, and may be paying a premium based on that appraisal; but some policies state that they will cover you UP TO the appraisal amount. This means you will never get a penny more than the appraisal amount, but if the insurance company values your car less, that is all they will pay you.

Something is going on here...

Just got off the phone with a friend in Central Alberta.

His insurance broker informed him this week that they will no longer insure his modified vehicle and must go with the Silver Wheel/Hagerty plan to continue.

His only problem with the Hagerty plan is that he is allowed to tow a "theme" trailer, just not his regular small trailer, which he uses about 4 times per year to go to out of province car shows.

Somebody has done a lot of lobbying with the insurance underwriters to start this ball rolling....scary stuff.

1Bad56 said:

Edited:



First of all, a brand spanking new car that one paid $50,000 depreciates the minute it's taken off the lot by 20% t0 30% in the first year. In a total accident, you can not expect to get $50K for that vehicle.

So one can not compare that to a vehicle which is appraised for $50,000. Apples and oranges.

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My insurance policy has a clause in it that will replace my NEW vehicle if stolen / lost in an accident in the fist two years, after that they start the depreciation.

58chev said:

My insurance policy has a clause in it that will replace my NEW vehicle if stolen / lost in an accident in the fist two years, after that they start the depreciation.

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So do my policies,BUT,it's for the original purchaser only and not transferable.
A friend of mine had his 'modified' stolen and the insurance company were refusing to pay the 'agreed' value his premium stated so he had to get the appraiser involved and eventually a judge sided with the appraisers extreme knowledge and experience and paid out the full amount.

Insurance companies are all smiles and giggles as you keep paying their premiums. Make a claim and out comes the fine print and battles. It is not just car insurance, but all insurance like home insurance, travel out of the country insurance, boat insurance.

Russ

wrascal said:

Insurance companies are all smiles and giggles as you keep paying their premiums. Make a claim and out comes the fine print and battles. It is not just car insurance, but all insurance like home insurance, travel out of the country insurance, boat insurance.

Russ

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Especially that travel out of country one, constant horror stories in the media.
Not worth buying it as there are so many loopholes in the fine print that one could drive an 18-wheeler through them.
Even if you declare an existing condition, that gets used to decline even if it had nothing to do with the new medical emergency.

58chev said:

My insurance policy has a clause in it that will replace my NEW vehicle if stolen / lost in an accident in the fist two years, after that they start the depreciation.

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Yes, there are a few who offer that for a premium. Not as many as there use to be.

I've been speaking with a few insurance companies over the last few days.
It appears that if you have an unmodified car, a lot of insurance companies will allow you to drive the vehicle on a "regular" basis (ie: not severly restricted like specialty car insurance). You'll also pay 'full price' for this - not a reduced price like specialty insurance.

If the vehicle has been modified in any way, it's considered modified and I haven't yet found an insurance brokerage that will insure a modified vehicle for regular use.

I told one brokerage that my vehicle had indeed been modified as I had removed the single port brake master cylinder so I could upgrade to a dual port master cylinder and I replaced the not-possible-to-get-anymore sized bias ply tires with all season radials.

She said, "If it's been modified in any way, we can't insure it."
I told her, "You know these are huge upgrades for safety, right?"
She told me that if it's been modified from original that I have to go to a specialty car insurance company.

Another fellow I spoke to told me that there's "no middle ground in the insurance business today".
You either have an unmodified, regular use car or you have a specialty vehicle. If the specialty vehicle is insured with a 'classic car' company (ex:Silver Wheels/Custom Wheels) then you are severely restricted with the usage and you are 'rewarded' with significantly lower premiums.

My regular use insurance company told me they wouldn't insure my specialty vehicles because they didn't have any safety ratings on them. Apparently a 2008 Honda (just a wild example) is consider "so safe" on their scale. Perhaps a 1995 Dodge is not "as safe" on their scale. Therefore, the premiums for the Honda (from a safety aspect) are less than the Dodge because if you get into an accident, the Honda is a safer car to be in and there's less chance of the insurance company paying out big bucks for your injuries.
However, the Honda may be worth more than the Dodge so you'll have to pay higher premiums to insure it in case it gets damaged or stolen.

Your modified car (and/or your old car that they don't have a rating for on their scale) cannot be properly rated and compared to the stock 2008 Honda and the stock Dodge. Therefore, the insurance company cannot predict how much they'll have to pay out for your injuries in the event of an accident.

Apparently with our insurance system today, YOUR insurance company is on the hook for up to $3500 in costs related to your injuries EVEN IF the accident is somebody else's fault. So your insurance company has a vested interest in "how safe" your car is.
Since my cars have been modified (and are too old to be on their rating's list), they can't say how safe my vehicles are so they won't insure me. The value of the car is FAR secondary to the premiums you pay.

As I told everyone I spoke to : "I guarantee my cars are FAR safer than any motorcycle legally driven on Ontario's roads today. If you will insure bikes, you should insure a legally safetied car whether it's been modified or not."

I call shenanigans.
And B.S.

I'm not done looking for a company who will insure my specialty cars but I ain't having any luck either.

Try This broker... http://www.mcleaninsurancelive.com/

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