Dropped 4" axle have I bought the wrong one?

[Martin]

Hi chaps
I just got my 4" dropped axle today and the shop (old car centre) recommended that I get the 46" wide after I mentioned the wheel & tire set up, the ones Fry has listed as I will hopefully be purchasing those. I said that I wanted to keep it all stock , as much as possible & that is a full fendered car
I find now that the wish bone is about 2" to 3" to wide for the new axle's spring perch location.
Is this common or should the shop have recommended the wider width axle.
Confused I am.
Do you bend the wish bone to fit.
Get the wider axle.
With the wider axle will the wheel still turn fully without rubbing.
Any suggestions.

Confused already and its only just begun:confused:
Regards
Martin

[johnny37]

If you're running full fendered, 46" is the measurement to go with. Perch locations will be and are different, since the original axle was 48". The narrower axle helps give you the clearance to get the car lower and still turn the wheels properly. In the same vein, the original spring will not fit the 46" axle, since again the perch location is different.

[Martin]

So given that the hair pin will now not fit, whats the next step.
Do I purchase a wish bone that will fit the new axle.
Do I heat & bend the original one to fit (is this OK to do? can it be done)
Do I have to get something else to do the job, radius rods, parallel link kit or?
If I now have to replace the spring whats recommended.
(So much for the budget, mmm)

The Romans
Vini - Vidi - Vichi We came - We saw - We conquered.

Hot Rodders
Vini - Vidi - VISA We came - We saw - We spent

Regards
Martin

[Martin]

So given that the hair pin will now not fit, whats the next step.
Do I purchase a wish bone that will fit the new axle.
Do I heat & bend the original one to fit (is this OK to do? can it be done)
Do I have to get something else to do the job, radius rods, parallel link kit or?
If I now have to replace the spring whats recommended.
(So much for the budget, mmm)

The Romans
Vini - Vidi - Vichi We came - We saw - We conquered.

Hot Rodders
Vini - Vidi - VISA We came - We saw - We spent

Regards
Martin

[dale48mrc]

Now, I may be told I'm wrong on this, but I don't think you can buy a new wishbone.That being said you can probaly split the one you have(There is kits available.),or you can go with either hairpins or a 4 bar setup.B-bob would be the guru on this one,so hopefully he'll chime in at some point!

[Canuck]

A 46" axle has a 2" narrower spring perch. This necessitates a narrower spring, ie Posies etc.

As far as the wishbone it could be narrowed 1" on each side by heating the yoke close to the ball and bending it in. HOWEVER, it all depends on what you are planning for a engine. That is probably the easiest and very effective method if you are keeping the original 4 cylinder and can keep the original wishbone rear mount. If you are changing the engine it will probably be easiest to split the bones and install 11/16-18 R&L sleeves in the end of each whishbone side to take a Ford tie rod end. The sleeves can be made from a original tie rod that is in good shape or a tie rod from a hot rod vendor such a Horton or maybe a local hot rod shop could make one. Mounts for split bones can be purchased from companies such as Chassis Engineering or TCI or you can make your own. The hardest part making your own is the tapered hole for the tie rod end. Speedway sell a round bushing with a tapered hole for shocks that can be welded in or you can buy a reamer with the correct taper. I like the idea of using a tie rod end as they are a sealed unit unlike a Heim end and should last longer, also they are available anywhere. The ends of the split wishbone are spaced down from the bottom of the frame to set the axle at the correct caster angle, probably a couple of inches or more for a A.

Another neat end would be the original A tie rod ends with a pivot ball mounted on the frame bracket. More involved, but a real old time look. Wish I had done that.

Canuck

[Canuck]

Don't forget the steering arms on the spindles will require modification. exactly what depends on the spindles that you are using. 37-41, the round backs mount the tie rods from the bottom, the 42-48 mount them from above. Both will require modification to clear a split wishbone. Or they can be replaced with aftermarket arms.

Canuck

[hortrod40]

Martin, there is some good info here already, and the 46" axle is the one to use in a full-fendered 'A', but there are more ambushes to be ready for. In this original post you say you wanted to keep it all stock. Wishbone? Steering box? Shocks? Shackles? BRAKES??? Tell me it ain't so...

The narrow (46") axle will require:
- a new spring
- shorter tie rod
- bolt-on steering arms. (The stock arms can be bent to clear the axle in a turn and to position the tie rod to clear the wishbone, but this will shorten the effective length of the arms and the front wheels will likely shimmy.) Deep drop arms can be bought to put the tie rod under the wishbone and clear the axle in a turn and they provide stock leverage.

If you have drag link steering (the drag link running parallel to the frame rail and attaching to an arm on the driver's side spindle), and if you have tube shocks mounted under the axle on Super Bell or Magnum bolt-on mounts, you will probably need a shorter "slingshot" steering arm so the tie rod end will clear the shock. Even then, it's sometimes necessary to mount the tie rod end above the arm to clear the shock. To extend this paragraph, if you have an F100 steering box, the drag link will be out of "sync" with your wishbone and there will probably be bump steer. If you have a Mustang box (not a rack) the condition will not be as bad, but closer to a reality stage than a theoretical stage. The Pitman arm points towards the ground with an F100 box and it points up with a Mustang box. With what I've seen from your earlier posts (I probably haven't read them all), your ride might still have the stock steering box. ??

If you have cross steering (Vega box), the drag link will have to be shortened or a shorter one bought.

You probably already know that new shackles are likely required for your new spring.

I'm starting to look back at what's in my post and figure it's time to quit writing and get back to work. Back in my other life (Horton's) we would have gone thru' all this and more if someone asked about an axle swap. Maybe, in buying parts, a good question to ask the vendor is "What else will I need to put this in my Model 'A'?". (I hope we always suggested those add-on, necessary parts - Buying a can of paint? Probably will need a paint brush!)

Call me if you want to talk. I'll probably talk longer than I write, but it is easier on me.

Paul Horton
Welder Series
www.welderseries.com

[Scotty]

If the budget is tight, I believe you should be able to just buy a new shorter mainleaf and reuse the rest of the existing leaves, as long as they're in good shape.
Scott

[Martin]

Hmmm
OOO how the plot thickens.
OKey dokes here we go
Never hot rodded before, always just bought and drove.
Any model A info I have is by comparisson (pictures and the like) and from this forum.
So, 29 model A coupe with what I believe is 1940 (39 to 42?) juice brakes.
Still has original 21" wheels so assuming original spindles (5.5" bolt pattern)
All other components, steering, axle, wishbones etc are believed orignal model A
Whats missing is the shock absorber but believe this was a canti levered or dog leg type absorber (from other pictiures, and the original spring perch has a ball on it that would fit that type of absorber, opposite the ball is a hole, for want of a better description).
What have I bought thus far
4" dropped superbell front axle.
Purchasing Fry's wheels and tires next week
King pins (from OCC, missing parts and crappy threads)
Original perches (original ordered but different ones sent)
Other than that the front end is off of the car waiting for lots of bits I am ignorant about.
But there is good news, I've jst collected $1100 in didvidends from shares I had but have not been paid since 99, cool
So yes please help and continue with the advise,
The guys at OCC seem helpfull but I'm thinking not 100% up to scratch especially when I don't really know what to specifically ask for.
Anyways, Im appreciating the great advise so keep it coming guys, its all good. after I'm done my front end I'll put together a novices "this is what I did and needed " sort of thing.
Regards
Martin

[dale48mrc]

Martin,you know what axle you have and I'm positive the boys at OCC can help you out.You know you could have bought a complete frontend setup,would have took all the guess work out of the equation.
Are you going for the old school look?Is that why you are asking about the Houdaille type shocks?You can get mounts for tube type shocks.Personally I think you could of saved yourself alot head scratchin' by going with the complete setup,because you haven't done this before.There's something to be said about these kits,they make it easy for a novice.Now don't get me wrong,it still takes a fair amount of work to install one of these.

[johnny37]

Hmmm


The guys at OCC seem helpfull but I'm thinking not 100% up to scratch especially when I don't really know what to specifically ask for.


If you don't know what to ask for, is'nt it a little difficult to get what you want or need? I think Dale has it right, if the budget allows. A complete front end would eliminate all the guesswork about what you need for the job. Bit by bit can get confusing, not only for you but for the parts guys too, trying to keep up with what you've done and not done. Not to throw stones at one or the other, just an observation. Keep with it, you'll get it right in the end. Richard at OCC is top rate, he's been around A's since he was a kid. I ask him about this type of stuff all the time.

[bct]

OMG...all you need is the proper axle and some work ....not 2500 dollars worth of new shit....next they will be tellin you to get a mustangII

[dale48mrc]

We are not trying to talk him into buying $2500 dollars worth of stuff.Martin is unsure of what he needs and has not built a Model "A" before.What that means is he doesn't know what parts he needs or what he has to get.If someone could steer him in the right direction that would be cool,but sometimes for a novice the kit is the easier and cheaper way to go.As far as I'm concerned a MII don't work in a model "A".I don't wanna see the guy go thru a bunch of mistakes and frustration to do what he wants.Just wanna see him get his project going in the right direction.

[modelAbone]

what is needed here and everywhere is total clarity.. and a few pics for sure .. maybe what should be done is too start from the top lol .. i bought a Model A and it has stock suspension ? with a juice brake conversion ? or do u know for sure ? do u want too retain 21 wheels and drop the front down ?or wheel change ? truely what is the end product u need? if the drop is what your tryin too achieve with wish bones there will be other variables . yes guys run narrower axles on fendered cars but if your keepin skinnys up front then stay with stock width bein every variable you change can open up a few more can`s of worms .. so please enlighten us with what your tryin too do and achive please .. clarity is a beautiful things

[bct]

point taken dale ...i've offered to help martin at least three times as i'm only a short distance away....i have spare of everything he needs sitting right here, dropped axle, dropped arms.,bungs , ends...not trying to sell anything for a profit, just replacement... trying to help as a fellow enthusiast..not a commercial business...what do ya do? anyhow, i've lost intrest in being a helping hand ....so on with the show...

[dale48mrc]

Is that sorta like bangin' yer head against a wall,bct?Clarity rules!

[Martin]

Hi bct
I've PM 'd you and left a message on your answering machine, not ignoring you, just not seeming to get through. I do appreciate the sincerity of your offer of help and hopefully you'll get to read this and maybe it'll still be there. If not, well, Im sorry if you feel your offer of help was rejected as that was certainly not an intention.
No hard feelings either way I hope.

Regards
Martin

[Martin]

This is the look I'm trying to achieve but probably not having the top chopped as much.
Wheel & tire combo should be coming courtey of Fry once I get my cheque underway
paint is pretty much as shown as is rest of cars condition.
http://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp70/macajabr/reworkedModelA.jpg

[Martin]

Chttp://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp70/macajabr/modelApictures027.jpgars present condition & interior shot
http://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp70/macajabr/modelApictures031.jpg

[johnny37]

So besides wheels and tires (what bolt pattern, by the way??), what are the plans for the car. Are you changing powertrain? Suspension upgrades and or mods?? Are you changing the rear end?? Changing the axle will bring it down, but like has been said above, it does entail some other work to accommodate that axle. In plain terms, what is the complete plan?

[Martin]

Heres the complete (maybe) plan as it stands at the moment
The car is a driver, albeit with a flat battery now. I'd like to mod one area at a time so that once that particular mod is done it will remain drivable.
I'd like to keep it as traditional looking as possible being a full fendered vehicle.

Dropped front axle installation with required accompanying mods by Jan 20th
(back to sea on that date)
Wheel bolt pattern is 5.5"
Wheels & tires fitted
Keep the original 4 banger, rear axle & tranny for at least this year & probably next as well as they seem fine & exhaust is good.

April/May 09 (back home)
Vega steering box & pitman arm for improved steering/drivability.
Overhaul brakes.
Elecrtonic ignition kit fitted
Potentiall of lowering rear end (all by end of June if possible, back to sea)

August/September
Tidy up loose ends, safety check and rack up some mileage

Next winter
Welding course to improve on what I can already do
Roof Chop (with help from a local guy in town)
Lower headlight bar
Rewire with more circuits for extra lights etc.

My intention was never to put a monster of an engine in the A or have chrome parts adorning the underside. I don't want a show car but rather a car I can take to a show. As long as it puts a smile on my face then its doing the job I intended. I do imagine however that at some time from now a progression of adaptation will take place as I become more familiar with and comfortable making changes to the car. I'll gather ideas be they subtle or significant from other vehicles and maybe they will or will not be added to mine, who knows, not me, not yet.
Sure I'd like a nice burble from a pair of twin exhausts, who doesn't.
But as a beginner or novice or even a dumba** new guy to rodding, it'll come one piece at a time, nut by nut, bolt by bolt, along with the skinned knuckles, headaches and pondering.
And maybe one day I might be able to advise someone on the best or preferred way of completing a given task, or offer help and be patient with their hesitance to accept it.
So there we are, will it change with the dawn of another day, maybe?
Regards
Martin

[johnny37]

Is the car still 6V?? If it is, then when you re-wire, I would think you'd want to go to a 12V system at that time. Other than that, your plan looks pretty good. Bite size pieces, one at a time. Ask lots of questions along the way. No question is a stupid one, especially when you're just starting out like you are. Good luck with the project, glad to see you starting with what looks to be a very nice car to begin with.

[Duke]

Martin, Rod and Custom did several articles on doing just what you wanted to do last year or so. You might find it on their web site. I am building the same car and I am in Vernon if you want to take a look. I think you have the wrong axle for what you want to achieve. I would drop you stock axle or exchange your axle for the one that will fit your stock wishbones. You may just want to put your new rims and tires on and see how it looks. The next easy lowering procedure is to reverse the springs and depending on the leaves in the rear spring, remove a few leaves. You may find that you can buy a new front spring for the cost of reversing it, and if your old spring is worn, this may be the best option. With the original motor, I think I would just rebuilt the stock steering box or maybe do some research and find out if the later A had a better box (1931), I think it might.
I think you need to be honest with what you want to achieve, you will spend lots of money and time if you don't have a final goal in mind. For example, if you plan is to run a V8 one day....I would just drive the car with the new rims and tires, chop it and at the same time I would just build a whole new chassis with a drop axle, new steering etc. Building a Model A frame is easy if you approach it the right way.

[Martin]

Hi Duke
I'd like to have a look at your car for sure, always good to see another old car and glean ideas or just chat a little.
As far as the axle goes, it seems to be the "most common" available and was recommended by a bunch of different suppliers for a fendered vehicle.
I do have a new reversed eye spring on the way from OCC with U bolt kit perches kingpins etc.
I actually cut my wishbone today:eek: and have a kit coming to mount the cut end to the chassis.
Also have the kit for straight shock absorbers for the front end as well. wanted to use the older friction "dog leg" type but they were silly expensive, no shocks on my car when I bought it.
As for being honest about what I want from the car as a finished product. Well my vision of the car on the road is as described and thats the goal I'm presently heading for, very much wanting it to be at the show in winfield August 28 through 30.. I' got a 350 & TH400 in my garage but just don't want it in the car at the present time.
Thanks for you input Duke.
I'm around till 20th Jan if you have time for a visitor
best Regards
Martin

[johnny37]

Hi Duke
. I' got a 350 & TH400 in my garage but just don't want it in the car at the present time.


When you do, you are going to have to box the frame. The torque of the SBC will twist the original frame in no time unless that's done.

[Canuck]

When you get ready to swap out the motor, might want to consider a TH350 or even a 200R4, both a little smaller in size, giving you a bit more room under the floor.

Canuck