derusting with molasses

[ss34coupe]

I've been using this molasses method for the last six years, and have derusted a lot of parts. I use one part molasses to ten parts water, and buy the molasses from feed shops (about 17 bucks for a 30 pound pail). My 4 foot long by two foot high and two foot deep tank takes two pails to fill. Got a bigger tank as well recently, but have not got it ready for use yet. It is big enough to do doors, fenders, hoods etc.

Here are some shots of the B pillars for my 33 coupe - before and after.

I know how it works for me, but I would be interested in hearing if others use this method and how it works for you.

[ss34coupe]

try the photos again, I am not good a putting two up at once, so it might take two posts.

Before......http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/ss34coupe/100_0829.jpg

[ss34coupe]

and after.....http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/ss34coupe/pillars003.jpg

[dale48mrc]

Our much beloved D-Joe has a molasses tank ,too!Good to see the results,makes me wanna give it a try!

[Deuce-Merchant]

That is most impressive Steve
How are the hood panels making out, ya got them in the tank?

Kelly

[ss34coupe]

yep, I have one side in the tank. I want to take comparison photos of the other rusty side, and will post on here. Anybody up in Kamloops use the molasses derusting method?

[Deuce-Merchant]

No body that I know of Steve,but I intend to soon.
I cant imagine a better way to do the same job.
Thanks for the insight.
I have seen a few parts that Davey has done and it is very impressive.

Kelly

[Brendan]

ss34coupe,How long did you leave the door pillars soak in the molasses mix? Thanks, Brendan.

[Kustomshoebox]

Ok... can you guys that have the tanks, please post a how to/ tech artical on how to make/use a molasases tank? I want to see how you made it/ what you used. cause I think what I have in mind is not exactly what you guys have built or use.... lets see what you got!

[Techhead]

Some "Tank" idears...

From any size beer cooler. :eek: to A childs plastic sandbox with a lid. Some have used an old home oil tank, cut open (large enough to dip a door) :D

[tinmann]

Over at Davey's we have a plastic cube that once held some sort of pulp mill chemical. It's about 4 - 5 ft square. I've had six '32 ford doors in it at one time. Derusting takes about a month. We put a stock heater in it for the winter to avoid the embarrasssing "roadster caught in an ice cube" thing from happening again.

[mrpaco69]

might be a odd question but does the molasses water mix need to be heated to work

[parklane]

No, you don't need to heat it, and the other nice thing about this stuff is that it only goes after the rust, not the metal. You can leave the parts in there for years without fear of desolving parts.
John

[johnny37]

We put a stock heater in it for the winter to avoid the embarrasssing "roadster caught in an ice cube" thing from happening again.

What do you mean by "again"??:D

[ss34coupe]

I'll take some pictures of my tank this weekend and post them. It has a bunch of parts soaking in it now.

The general time frame for soaking parts like the B pillars is 3 weeks, although I have had a lot of parts go through that take less time, some as little as a week. Window moldings, for example, with a light coat of rust, don't take that long. But a firewall that is in the tank now only lost about two/thirds of its rust in two weeks, so I put it back in for another week.

The molasses does not have to be heated, although I do think it is more effective when the weather is warmer, as in summer time. I have not tried it in winter, but I guess it would freeze and not work at all.

Any type of steel metal tank will work (not an alloy) or plastic. Fiberglass would probably work as well. The tank should be covered, it makes the process work better, and keeps out animals like cats from drowning.

Will post more later with pictures about how it works from start to finish. Just be warned that it does require a lot of labour, you don't put the parts in and they come out nice and shiny. More later.

[Davey_Joe]

oooookay,.... we've used this derusting setup fer a few years now... it is called 'chelation'.... there is an enzyme of sorts in the mollases that attacks only rust.... it will 'not' hurt the ferrous (gray) metal,... altho the tinn guy sez it attacks pot metals..... we've tryed it from 6 to 1,... up to 10 to 1... our main tank is a 450 gal. container that held some ink or?? at one of the pulp mills..... right now there is a 37 ford hood an' side curtains in it... last year we had a lil' assembly line goin' when we pulled my "A" cowl an body parts out... 1 guy rinsing with a pressure washer,...(which removed almost all the rest o' the paint) tinn was metal prepping, another blowdrying,... an' the last guy shootin' some primer on the stuff ta keep the weather off!!....now,.. mollases seems to like attracting mold. we've tryed some fungicide in the tank with mixed success. we just scrape it off an' throw it on the compost heap... and yeah,... if ya don't use a trough heater in this area yer roadster can be froze up fer a spell!!!...... sooo,....... go to yer dictionary an' check out 'chelation',... or ,... 'to chelate'.... an' ya can lick yer pinkies when yer done!! oh yeah,..we don't know how long it lasts,... we've never poured it out!! the rusty sludge is in the bottom o' the tank!! (fiction an' fact from DJo's almanac)!!!

[RATZZZ]

Oh , Davie ,I dont hate you cause your beautiful.

[Davey_Joe]

.............cornholers!!...............

[tiquer]

Roomer has it that a gallon jug corked and with a small nail hole waited to the bottom of the tank will yield some fine shine. So say my PTP informant.LOL:D

[ss34coupe]

here's what my tank looks like. Picked it up at a salvage place 6 years ago, and a lot of parts have gone through it. Have a bigger tank as well, but it is not yet ready for use.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/ss34coupe/oldcar_003.jpg

[ss34coupe]

here's the molasses in the tank - looks pretty grungy. If you don't like to get your hands dirty, then this is not for you. I generally keep the molasses in the tank for six weeks, and then replace it. The old stuff just gets thrown on the ground - it is biodegradeable, so does not cause any harm to plants etc.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/ss34coupe/oldcar_005.jpg

[ss34coupe]

here is a 34 Ford firewall after it comes out of the molasses tank. It had the usual rust for a 74 year old piece of metal.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/ss34coupe/oldcar_006.jpg

[ss34coupe]

after the firewall was taken out of the tank and allowed to dry, I took a wire wheel brush in an electric drill and went over the entire surface. That brings the metal up nice and shiny - it will be cleaned even more when it is ready to be put in a car body. All the pieces that are put in the tank must be given the wire wheel treatment - thats what I mean when I say this is a labour intensive process - it takes a lot of work to get the parts ready for use.
But overall it is a cheap and effective way to derust car parts.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/ss34coupe/oldcar_013.jpg

[1Bad56]

very interesting....and good work...mind if I send you some parts to work on?
You've got the process down to an art.

[ss34coupe]

thanks 56, but I would rather share my info with others to encourage guys like you to get your own system going. It's not that hard, just requires some good old hard work.

[Bgbkwndo]

Does anyone know the history of this molasses " de-rusting" process. When I first heard of this process from Davey-Joe, I thought he was having a lend of me [ as John-in- Oz would say]. Am surprised at how well it works!

Bgbkwndo.

[tinmann]

Does anyone know the history of this molasses " de-rusting" process. When I first heard of this process from Davey-Joe, I thought he was having a lend of me [ as John-in- Oz would say]. Am surprised at how well it works!

Bgbkwndo.


Davey was born the son of a poor black share cropper. When he was a mere adolescent, he knew he was different from his 11 brothers and 16 sisters. He had absolutely no rhythm even though gospel music was a big part of his upbringing....... molasses?? .... oh, never mind!!

[Davey_Joe]

dave,... i first heard about it from bob morris,... nuther ozzie on the board here... he was tellin' me about it when he an' his bride were over here a few years ago... i took that in like it was bulshit and one day jimmy rose an' i were talkin'... sooooo,... i snuck down ta the feed store,(when no one wuz lookin')... an' got a tub of the stuff an' tryed it.... "yup",.... she do work!!! oh yeah,.... lets leave my 27 siblings outta this,.... OK??...........

[Kustomshoebox]

harumphhhh...... what a jerk!... "now son.... this here, see this is shit. this here though, is shinola."

as far as the molasses tank is concerned... I'm gonna look into building one in the garage.start small... then go big big enough to do a few doors at once

Hey flatlander... if we could find someone to build us a small containment.... say 4 feet high 20 long and 10 wide.... we could do a whole damn car !!

[Scotty]

Thanks DJoe, I read up on chelation. Very interesting stuff.

KustomShoeBox, why not just use one of those big metal shipping containers?:D

I was thinking an old freezer or fridge might be the beginnings of a medium size tank. Comes with lid and everything.

[Kustomshoebox]

if we could find a cheap sea can.... cut the top off... could do the whole car .

I got a dumb question. will this process take off gease or tar or bits of old rubber?

[ss34coupe]

kustom, it won't take off grease or tar or rubber. The rusty part should be cleaned of grease etc. before it goes in the tank. Another thing, anyone wanting to set up a tank should do it outdoors - there is a smell that comes with this deal - it doesn't bother me but my wife can't stand it. We live in a residential area close to neighbours. The back yard borders on a forrest, so I keep the tank back there. In my previous house, also a residential neighbourhood, there were complaints from the neighbours. But then again, I was never very good at winning that "neighbour of the year award".- what with all the old cars and constant welding, grinding and painting in the driveway! Lets face it, most folks just don't get it, they want to spend all their time on looking after the yard....

[Kustomshoebox]

hehehe.... days off now... I'll start looking for a tank. I seen some large plastic "totes" at the red deer land fill... th ekind I used to use out on the west coast for transporting fish in... they are about 4 foot high... 35. feet square, insulated and have lids... I'd like to find one of those....

[wrascal]

Hi ss34coupe,
Some neighbors are just too picky these days! When they get cranky, tell them that you might sell it to somebody wanting to set up a "grow op" or "crack house" Then they just might have cause to complain:D
I got lucky, my neighbor is also a car freak with a nice 64 Falcon.

Russ

[Aero46Chevy]

Here's a question for all you molasses guru's. Have you tried bubbling the tank. Would it aid in the time factor for derusting. I know it does when using acid's. Just wondered if anyone has tried it with the molasses.

Great topic by the way guys!!!!

Aero

[Techhead]

hehehe.... days off now... I'll start looking for a tank. I seen some large plastic "totes" at the red deer land fill... th ekind I used to use out on the west coast for transporting fish in... they are about 4 foot high... 35. feet square, insulated and have lids... I'd like to find one of those....

Could always use a deep freezer or fridge. With the fridge you have two sizes.

[ss34coupe]

Aero, I have never tried bubbling the tank, either with forced heat or electricity. Have wondered what it might do tho' - probably worth trying sometime. The molasses process is slow, that is one drawback, and it might be speeded up by doing what you mention.

[Aero46Chevy]

ss34... I meant bubbling with air. It sped the cleaning process up by at least 50%. Just a pipe laying in the bottom of the tank with a bunch of 1/16 holes drilled in it with 30 pounds of air.
I picked up a plastic tote 5x5x5 yesterday. It comes with a steel cage around it so I'll be able to mount a lid on it. Now to go out today and find me some molasses.

[Rochie]

John,
down this way you should be able to find molasses at any good Co-op or feed store. The Arva Flour Mill and Feed in Arva sells it in ten gallon pails for the horse crowd.

[ss34coupe]

Aero, very interesting, using air to speed up the cleaning process. You are making a good selection with a tank that size - it will hold a lot of parts. Can you post some pics so we can see what you are up to? Thanks for your input on this thread - along with the bubbling idea, I would still like to pursue the electricity or forced heat ideas at some point - just to see what would happen.

[Kustomshoebox]

I have a fridge in the garage not usedas it should be (beer) if a person used some parts basketsthen you could dunk them in, leave them and pull them out to check without getting "mucky".... I'll set mine up this weekend. I think the air think would definatly help.
I learned through my courses with work ( former carpet cleaner) that you need 4 things to make any chemical reaction work to the results you need.. time, aggitation, chemical strength, temperature.
if you reduce any oneone the four you must increase one or all of the other three.
adding air would add to the aggitation making it work faster.
adding heat would also make it faster.
Time as we can all see is whats getting it done at this point because it takes a few weeks or a month to get a part looking the way we need.
and I think if we changed up the mix too much (chemical strenght) you would wind up with a goopy mess.
so add heat and or air and it should speed up the process.... by how much I dont know.

[Ozzie Bob]

Ok know ,

It looks like my old mate has let the cat out of the bag big time.....

This is how it works....LISTEN CLOSELY:)

Mix ratio 1 part molasses to 10 parts water

Leave for 4 weeks
If you want more speed from your mix....
double the dose and half the time.

Some things in life take time .....Whiskey and a good molasses mix.....no need to rush ...just plan your dipping times according to the job at hand

No real need to wire brush after (34 coupe) your mix is a little off balance

Protect with a POR style protectant and you can leave the panels etc in this condition for years. Ready to prime at a later date ...remember no rush

Down here the most common size for a tank is a large water storage tank , commonly used to store rain fall off the roof of our houses...approx 10,000 gallons...it will hold a car body.

Yes you can empty the tubs ...usually once a year is enough...it will probably kill the grass ( burn actually) but never fear it will grow back with a vengence...high it nutrients.

I can not give any advise on adding air...all i can offer is be careful with this.We all want to keep as much of our cars as we can.

The crust on the top is good....it is a fly trap and a good semi liquid fertilizer for moms garden.

For the blokes that really don't want to get there hands dirty....tig wire is plenty strong enough to tie to the parts you are dipping. hook them to the side and it does make things easier to find.

If by any chance you forget to protect a new dipped piece ...just drop it back in for 1 week not 4 and it will be ready to work again.

I hope this fills in a few gaps...

Ozzie Bob

[John in Oz]

Bob you forgot to mention you can go down to the Hic Beenleigh Hic Rum Distillery hic, not far from me here:D hic or in your case the Bundaberg Hic Rum Distillery, hi hic hiccup:rolleyes:;).

But in fact I don't drink either of them. But the sugar mill does sell it cheaper than the produce stores.

I got your Powerglide valve body out today and that might need a trip in the tub because it got rained on while I had everything out of the shed putting an internal wall and insulation in there.

Cheers, John

[CDNflatlander]

This is great information; thanks for all the info crew.

Could this be send into the reference file now?
Greg.

[da66beaumont]

I have never heard of that Looks like it works great I am also wondering how long you had to leave the parts in there soaking

[ss34coupe]

Ozzie Bob, glad to see this process is working in your part of the world. Don't know how you get away without the wire brush treatment, because for me it is a bit more time, and a lot more clean. Sure would be interested to see some pictures of how the setup works down there - any chance you could take some time and post some for your mates up here? Thanks for your input, much appreciated, Steve.

[Duke]

You can also use vinegar. I soak my rusty parts for about a week in vinegar, pull them out and hose them off, wire brush off any black build up, and then I dip them in a bath of baking soda and water, hose them off again, and then dry. Seems to work really well. The cowl panel in the picture was done before rust repair was done. The vinegar removed the yellow paint, but left most of the stock green paint.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa108/Duke1957/2006_1209Modela290003.jpg

[Davey_Joe]

ok kiddies,... stop yer fightin'!!!..... now,.... remeber one thing,... the 'only' reason ya wanna use air for is agitation.... air is rust is oxidation...... 'rust' kiddies,... 'is' oxidation...... oxidation 'is' rust..... 'chelation' is a 'lack of' oxegen!..... note how yer gray metal flashrusts when ya rinse 'er off?? ......... ok,.... carry on................. (just a lil' more fiction an' fact from DJo's almanac)!!...............

[Dissposition]

holy crap!!!! who`da thunk it!!!

how long do u leave the pieces to soak.....

we are talkin about store bought molasses right.....I've been using this molasses method for the last six years, and have derusted a lot of parts. I use one part molasses to ten parts water, and buy the molasses from feed shops (about 17 bucks for a 30 pound pail). My 4 foot long by two foot high and two foot deep tank takes two pails to fill. Got a bigger tank as well recently, but have not got it ready for use yet. It is big enough to do doors, fenders, hoods etc.

Here are some shots of the B pillars for my 33 coupe - before and after.

I know how it works for me, but I would be interested in hearing if others use this method and how it works for you.

[ss34coupe]

Duke, yep vinegar works as well. I have only tried it on a small scale. I now have a larger tank going - 300 gallon deal from Rubbermaid that a buddy bought to make a pond in the backyard. He's stalled on the pond project, so lent it to me to fill with molasses and water. Have front fenders and other larger parts for the 53 Ford in it now - we'll see how they turn out in a week or so.

By the way, sure would be nice to see some pics of other efforts with this process.

[Bash and scratch]

Ok folks this is new to me but very intreging, however (naive one here) I have never seen molasses in any other form then like a syrup? Am I to assume this is not the way to use it? and if so is it granular? and any feed store? almost?

thanks ...........Bash

[parklane]

Ya, you get it at a feed store, and ya, it's the thick liquid stuff that you're familiar with. Does't work well when cold, so if you're goin ta do it this winter, you want to warm it up some, or bring it into the house, preferably the bedroom, as it has a real nice sweet smell. :eek::eek: BTW mix about 5 or 6 to 1.

[Bash and scratch]

cool thank you I think I am gonna try this,, but not in the bedroom ha ha ha!

[JOYRIDER]

I'll try it in the bedroom...maybe I can de-rust her too !!:)

[dumprat]

Vinegar will do the same thing faster. Just don't use it on cast or pot metal. It will eat it.

[Bash and scratch]

Vinegar will do the same thing faster. Just don't use it on cast or pot metal. It will eat it.

So the same idea with the covered tank? you check it how often and can you over do it and what mix ratio?

thanks .........Bash

[dumprat]

I have used vinegar on heavily rusted firearms. I works in days. But it eats soft metal,cast iron, blueing. I have used it more than once but the more you use it the weaker it gets.

[tinmann]

Vinegar will do the same thing faster. Just don't use it on cast or pot metal. It will eat it.

I put a deuce shell in molasses and it had a cracked rad cap bezel on it. It melted into goo. So I don't think pot metal is safe with molasses.

[Alcan AV8]

We decided to give this a try. We are using an old deep freeze. The top seals well and also locks. We have it mixed 4 to 1 right now. Is this too potent? We can add more water if needed.

[parklane]

Don't know for sure as I've always gone 10:1 ratio.

[old tin 38]

I'm glad this came up again cause it gets me thinkin about when Davey Jo was showing/telling me the facts about the system. I was waiting for the punchline then realized ...HOLLLY CRAPPPP...he's serious !!! The smug cornholer had me again !!!:D[/I]

[bct]

We decided to give this a try. We are using an old deep freeze. The top seals well and also locks. We have it mixed 4 to 1 right now. Is this too potent? We can add more water if needed.

let know how you make out with the 4:1......if you don't mind what is the cost of mollasses?

[Alcan AV8]

let know how you make out with the 4:1......if you don't mind what is the cost of mollasses?

5 gallon bucket for $26 at the co-op.

[ss34coupe]

Alcan - try a ratio of one part mollasses to ten parts water. That should work fine. Let us know how it turns out.

[parklane]

Can't see where it will hurt. I've heard of guys going 7:1, and since it doen't attack the steel, give it a try, and let us know.

[Alcan AV8]

Here are a couple of pics of our set up.

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r449/AlcanAV8/Misc/IMG00099.jpg

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r449/AlcanAV8/Misc/IMG00100.jpg

[Alcan AV8]

Took a couple of things out of our tank today. Results were pretty good. Just needed to scrub a little bit with a soft brush, rinse and dry. Pressure washer would probably be best.

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r449/AlcanAV8/Misc/IMG00170.jpg

[ss34coupe]

When you take the part out of the tank, blow it off with your regular garden pressure nozzle. That will take the crud off. Let it dry for a half hour or so, and then take a quarter inch electric drill with a wire wheel, and go over the part. That will bring out the shine in the metal. Time consuming to be sure, but worth it.

[bct]

i have been using vinegar on some small stuff as well lately. it works just like the washing soda and takes a little more time but the result is the same .....5 days, baking soda rinse and a few minutes with wire wheel and you are ready for paint.

[Techhead]

i have been using vinegar on some small stuff as well lately. it works just like the washing soda and takes a little more time but the result is the same .....5 days, baking soda rinse and a few minutes with wire wheel and you are ready for paint.

bct,
Are you using the 10% Pickling/Cleaning Vinegar? or regular white vinegar(4 -6%) acitic acid?

I also hear that if you warm it up some the process will be somewhat quicker.

[MBog]

I need to bring this back up. I got me a 250 gallon fishing tote, filled it with a mix of 7 water to 1 molassess. Put in some sheet metal and walked away for a month. Came back, pulled the piece out, hosed it off and watched it flash rust in mere minutes. So I tried it again, this time a A deck lid. It came out like new metal, shot it with the hose and very quickly hit it with WD40, and watched it flash rust before my eyes...What am I doing wrong???

[tinmann]

I need to bring this back up. I got me a 250 gallon fishing tote, filled it with a mix of 7 water to 1 molassess. Put in some sheet metal and walked away for a month. Came back, pulled the piece out, hosed it off and watched it flash rust in mere minutes. So I tried it again, this time a A deck lid. It came out like new metal, shot it with the hose and very quickly hit it with WD40, and watched it flash rust before my eyes...What am I doing wrong???

Pull 'em out, hose 'em off and then scrub in PPG Dx 578 metal conditioner. Keep it wet with the solution (mixed 1 part to 2 parts water) for 10 - 15 minutes, then neutralize with water and it will not rust for a long time.

[MBog]

Pull 'em out, hose 'em off and then scrub in PPG Dx 578 metal conditioner. Keep it wet with the solution (mixed 1 part to 2 parts water) for 10 - 15 minutes, then neutralize with water and it will not rust for a long time.

Like as in a dipping tank???

[tinmann]

Like as in a dipping tank???

I just move it around and scrub with an old paint brush.

[craig]

There are a couple different types of molasses

Food Grade Molasses has a higher sugar content, and is VERY expensive.

Molasses with Sulfur in it is the type that you can buy at the Feed Store. It's good for Vitamins for the cattle, though, if you put your parts through it, it'll probably be high in Iron for the cattle also - LOL -

But if you Mix Molasses with plain old white sugar, add some Yeast and distill you get Rum - I suggest aging it with Burnt Oak for a couple of months before drinking.

Also, there was a huge Molasses Spill in 1919 in Boston. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Molasses_Disaster) Pretty gruesome disaster, actually.

Craig

[MBog]

Thanks Tin, the molassess I buy is from a feed store @ $14.00 each...

[wrascal]

Good old U-tube video with step by step.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZCFcxf5IBw&feature=related

Russ:D

[greenworks]

I did my model a sedan this fall with molasses and it worked great parts took one week I did the whole car except frame and a frame....worked great!

I used a electric heater and a small fountain pump to keep the water in the 75 degree range really circulated. My tank was 4 x 5 x 4 feet deep...at a ratio of around 7:1...molasses was $85 dollars at my local cattle feed mixing plant.

[bucket t]

I did my model a sedan this fall with molasses and it worked great parts took one week I did the whole car except frame and a frame....worked great!

I used a electric heater and a small fountain pump to keep the water in the 75 degree range really circulated. My tank was 4 x 5 x 4 feet deep...at a ratio of around 7:1...molasses was $85 dollars at my local cattle feed mixing plant.

hello,i've heard about molasses as a de ruster but not much on how well it de rusts.For example does it get the bad pits out or just light surface rust?Also what is the active ingredient in Molasses that actually removes the rust?
I'm currently de rusting using electrolysis ,washing soda and a battery charger,but a really slow process, that kind of stops once most of the metal becomes exposed.The other way that worked for me was using phospheric acid.The acid works great but getting ridiculously high priced in these parts.I found using both the electrolysis and acid as a final finisher worked out with great results,but cannot as mentioned find a cheaper supplier for the acid.

[greenworks]

takes it down to bare metal in seams/pits everywhere the solution touches.to test how it its working just remove a smaller piece and pressure wash it if its clean the rest is probably done as well if not give it a few more days if your heating the solution or weeks if its not heated.

pull it out and rinse it good and dry as best you can to prevent flash rust. I used a zinc rust remover product made by por 15 on some interior panels to stop the flash rust but be aware if your spraying later with a primer expoxy they dont like each other. bonding issues could ruin your whole paint job always read tech sheets that your planning on using

[greenworks]

takes it down to bare metal in seams/pits everywhere the solution touches.to test how it its working just remove a smaller piece and pressure wash it if its clean the rest is probably done as well if not give it a few more days if your heating the solution or weeks if its not heated.

pull it out and rinse it good and dry as best you can to prevent flash rust. I used a zinc rust remover product made by por 15 on some interior panels to stop the flash rust but be aware if your spraying later with a primer expoxy they dont like each other. bonding issues could ruin your whole paint job always read tech sheets that your planning on using